[NO ISSUE]The Kurfurst is still unrealistically unstable at the top of a zoom climb

[jermin]

I stopped play Kurfurst 14 months ago because of its awfully unrealistic FM. Today, I fired up the game hoping that my favorite WWII fighter will live up to what it was in real life.

 

Its FM does improve a lot. But its stability at the top of a zoom climb still doesn't feel right. I can stand its strong tendency to pitch up. The its poor stability at the top of a zoom make it very difficult to do BnZ.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I stopped play Kurfurst 14 months ago because of its awfully unrealistic FM. Today, I fired up the game hoping that my favorite WWII fighter will live up to what it was in real life.

Sorry to sound harsh, but of course you like others say that after your wide RL experience flying Bf109K4, right?

 

S!

[jermin]

Sorry to sound harsh, but of course you like others say that after your wide RL experience flying Bf109K4, right?

 

S!

 

So you meant that the FM maker of this plane has flown this plane in real life? If it is true, I will apologize.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

So you meant that the FM maker of this plane has flown this plane in real life? If it is true, I will apologize.

No he don't, but he's an experienced aeronautical engineer who has already demonstrated a lot, what I'm not, are you? A veteran and actual 109 pilots were consulted in the module making, I've no clue to doubt about them. Why should I doubt about aeroplane quirks I can't say real or not without flying a real 109? Furthermore, most people coming here to claim this or that isn't real for 109 or other modules are only complaining about their own inability to master the aeroplane instead of trying to learn to fly her, can you demonstrate you are different?

 

What you are saying about "top of the zoom" stability only means you go too far zooming so you reach stall, that's a clumsy and poor flying not an aeroplane bug or unrealistic anything. I also make my claim, 109 as far as I have flown her is an absolute beast, and delightful to fly but of course has its quirks like any other 40's design should, and even those I like how she flies a lot. I don't see mayor problems on her. Now, why is your word better than mine?

 

S!

[jermin]

No he don't, but he's an experienced aeronautical engineer who has already demonstrated a lot, what I'm not, are you?

 

To err is human. A man can't be always right, no matter how experienced he/she is. This is a simple truth that even a 3-year-old can understand.

 

A veteran and actual 109 pilots were consulted in the module making, I've no clue to doubt about them. Why should I doubt about aeroplane quirks I can't say real or not without flying a real 109?

 

No one knows how that veteran and actual 109 pilot actually talk about the Kurfurst. But from this [ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKs9VLUcCg]interview video[/ame], you can clearly see that the veteran 190D pilot called Erich Brunotte kept complaining about the flight model when he first trying to fly the DCS Dora in front of a screen. Isn't the FM of Dora made by the experienced aeronautical engineer you talked about? Why he failed to make it right?

 

Furthermore, most people coming here to claim this or that isn't real for 109 or other modules are only complaining about their own inability to master the aeroplane instead of trying to learn to fly her, can you demonstrate you are different?

 

What makes you think that every person that complains the FM of DCS planes does not know how to fly? By that logic, if Eagle Dynamics released the above video without telling you who that old man is, will you ask him to learn to fly?

 

What you are saying about "top of the zoom" stability only means you go too far zooming so you reach stall, that's a clumsy and poor flying not an aeroplane bug or unrealistic anything. I also make my claim, 109 as far as I have flown her is an absolute beast, and delightful to fly but of course has its quirks like any other 40's design should, and even those I like how she flies a lot. I don't see mayor problems on her. Now, why is your word better than mine?

 

Wanna have a duel? Although I haven't flown this plane for over a year. I have faith to knock you out of the sky any day. :smilewink:

Edited June 15, 2016 by jermin

[x39crazy]

I disagree?

Why not put the virtual dongs and ruler away and get some evidence in here. Right now this is just "I don't like it!" To which the appropriate response is "So what?"

[arglmauf]

What is actually meant by "instability" here? Tendency of the plane to yaw without enough air moving over the control surfaces at the peak of a climb? Because that is correct behavior.

[msalama]

What is actually meant by "instability" here?

 

It means someone doesn't like the FM, because he thinks he's an ace and should thus be able to sweep the skies clean of you pesky mortals in his invincible Biffer, but can't actually prove his claim in any way, shape or form. QED :smartass:

Edited June 15, 2016 by msalama

[Jogui3000]

Solution to your problem, the K4 has a tendency to roll to the left when stalling, when you are at the top of your Zoom climb (you're almost stalling), reduce your throtlle to almost Idle, and hold the stick fully to the right to try and keep the plane stable, also, DON'T PULL BACK ON THE STICK, let the plane do the loop by himself, you'll see how easy it is. (I Might post a track later)

[jermin]

Solution to your problem, the K4 has a tendency to roll to the left when stalling, when you are at the top of your Zoom climb (you're almost stalling), reduce your throtlle to almost Idle, and hold the stick fully to the right to try and keep the plane stable, also, DON'T PULL BACK ON THE STICK, let the plane do the loop by himself, you'll see how easy it is. (I Might post a track later)

 

Finally a sensible answer.

 

It's not that it stalls at the top of a zoom climb. It's actually the opposite, it won't stall. With the speed at around 100 km/h IAS at the top of a zoom, its head should naturally drop down without any control input. In the game, however, it will float in the air horizontally for 10+ seconds. You need to pull quite an amount of stick to make its head drop.

 

No plane will hang upside down at 100 km/h IAS for such a long time.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

C'mon mate,

 

To err is human. A man can't be always right, no matter how experienced he/she is. This is a simple truth that even a 3-year-old can understand.

Of course, Yo-yo makes mistakes, I make mistakes, you make mistakes :smilewink:. But we have the evidence.

 

 

No one knows how that veteran and actual 109 pilot actually talk about the Kurfurst. But from this interview video, you can clearly see that the veteran 190D pilot called Erich Brunotte kept complaining about the flight model when he first trying to fly the DCS Dora in front of a screen. Isn't the FM of Dora made by the experienced aeronautical engineer you talked about? Why he failed to make it right?

Of course mate, Brunotte also talked about 109, probably late G version but if you find a K4 vet you're invited to show us all his thoughts. Don't try to figure out "proves", may be you don't know but you mean Brunotte complained about a pre-release version of the Dora, after that Dora has change really a lot and is a joy to fly. We all are here for a long time and know the whole history mate :smilewink:. Yo-yo is human, he can be wrong, but the question is Dora is fine. Nobody knows what failure you mean.

 

 

What makes you think that every person that complains the FM of DCS planes does not know how to fly? By that logic, if Eagle Dynamics released the above video without telling you who that old man is, will you ask him to learn to fly?

Scientifically I can't say every, but almost all the quick complains (aka I just tried to fly for the first time a hardcore simulation and I can't even taxi, not to mention take off so it has to be wrong because I'm the terror of the skies super duper ace in my play station so I go right now to say it's wrong to ED forums although I haven't seen a real aeroplane even close but in pictures at best) are related to that indeed, and this forums are evidence. You don't seem to read regularly the forums, do you?

 

 

Wanna have a duel? Although I haven't flown this plane for over a year. I have faith to knock you out of the sky any day. :smilewink:

Sure mate, I have no doubt :smilewink:. But we could go multiplayer and see what do you mean by instability.

 

 

S!

Edited June 15, 2016 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Finally a sensible answer.

 

It's not that it stalls at the top of a zoom climb. It's actually the opposite, it won't stall. With the speed at around 100 km/h IAS at the top of a zoom, its head should naturally drop down without any control input. In the game, however, it will float in the air horizontally for 10+ seconds. You need to pull quite an amount of stick to make its head drop.

 

No plane will hang upside down at 100 km/h IAS for such a long time.

Aaaaaaaannnnnnddddd, we have a winerrrrrrrrrrrrr :lol:. No mate, 109 is stalled @100Km/H, she shouldn't fall gently downwards like a microlight or a Cessna at all, she's a 1800HP lady and any power input, even a tiny bit, will make you a rollercoaster. You're quite wrong about how an aircraft should behave. By the way, even a Cessna will roll upside down in a power stall, I've done it :D :thumbup:, and I mean RL of course.

 

S!

[jermin]

Aaaaaaaannnnnnddddd, we have a winerrrrrrrrrrrrr :lol:. No mate, 109 is stalled @100Km/H, she shouldn't fall gently downwards like a microlight or a Cessna at all, she's a 1800HP lady and any power input, even a tiny bit, will make you a rollercoaster. You're quite wrong about how an aircraft should behave. By the way, even a Cessna will roll upside down in a power stall, I've done it :D :thumbup:, and I mean RL of course.

 

S!

 

It's the same with zero throttle. Try it for yourself.

 

And the T/W ration of the Kurfurst is far from 1. Even a Su-27 won't behave like that.

[Vedexent]

"I don't think it should behave this way" != "The aerodynamic modelling and actual historical pilot experience all concur this is incorrect behavior".

 

At best, you have a case for asking "this seems odd, is this correct behavior?", unless you're a Kurfurst test pilot (not even an aeronautical engineer, otherwise engineers wouldn't need test pilots).

 

Otherwise you really do come across as "I don't like this, therefore it's broken! Fix it!"

[Ala13_ManOWar]

It's the same with zero throttle. Try it for yourself.

Ok, I will :smilewink:.

 

 

But in first place mate, why on Earth do you think reaching a zoom top at 100Km/H is a right performed B&Z manoeuvre? :doh:

 

 

S!

[jermin]

"I don't think it should behave this way" != "The aerodynamic modelling and actual historical pilot experience all concur this is incorrect behavior".

 

A lot of times, you don't need an expert to tell you something is unrealistic before you realize it. For example, Sun won't rise from west. Again, this is a simple truth that even a 3-year-old can understand.

 

At best, you have a case for asking "this seems odd, is this correct behavior?", unless you're a Kurfurst test pilot (not even an aeronautical engineer, otherwise engineers wouldn't need test pilots).

 

Otherwise you really do come across as "I don't like this, therefore it's broken! Fix it!"

 

By your logic, nobody is eligible for making the FM of this plane and it's meaningless to discuss it. The correctness of the FM of this plane will forever be unknown. I'm wondering how all the WW2 flight sim developers out there would respond to your argument.

[jermin]

Ok, I will :smilewink:.

 

 

But in first place mate, why on Earth do you think reaching a zoom top at 100Km/H is a right performed B&Z manoeuvre? :doh:

 

 

S!

 

I didn't say I was performing a BnZ.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I didn't say I was performing a BnZ.

Sorry then, but you started talking about B&Z and how could you make it "correctly" with this "incorrect" behaviour IIRC :smilewink:.

 

S!

[Cripple]

The its poor stability at the top of a zoom make it very difficult to do BnZ.

 

That ^^

[msalama]

By your logic, nobody is eligible for making the FM of this plane and it's meaningless to discuss it.

 

Well, all you have presented so far is hunches and a dislike of how the plane behaves in its current form. How are you going to proceed in _proving_ something really is amiss?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying you CAN'T be right either, you just have to produce tangible evidence supporting your case if you want to see anything changed. It really is as simple as that.

[jermin]

That ^^

 

OK. Perhaps I didn't word it correctly. It meant difficulty by struggling. I am totally competent for this bird.

[jermin]

Well, all you have presented so far is hunches and a dislike of how the plane behaves in its current form. How are you going to proceed in _proving_ something really is amiss?

 

The reason I dislike it because I think it is unrealistic, not that I am not able to fly it or something else.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying you CAN'T be right either, you just have to produce tangible evidence supporting your case if you want to see anything changed. It really is as simple as that.

 

By your logic, it is actually Eagle Dynamics that should produce evidence to support their claim

 

Unmatched flight physics that allow you to truly feel what it's like to fly this legend.

 

which they did with the Dora. Now they need to ask a Kurfurst pilot to test fly it.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

By your logic, it is actually Eagle Dynamics that should produce evidence to support their claim

I don't think it works like that. They make a product, they are quite competent in doing so, they are part of a company dedicated to professional simulators, I think they know what they do. They make a thorough research for their products, of course that doesn't make it infallible but is a good start, and they indeed correct their mistakes as they have shown many times when a mistake is find and proven. Anyway, of course they are human and still the best simulation out there can't be 100% close to the real thing. You're buying their product, you're buying their 99% real simulation product and you buy (trust) it or not, but they don't have to claim anything.

 

S!

[NineLine]

By your logic, it is actually Eagle Dynamics that should produce evidence to support their claim

 

If you can post something to support your claims, I will report it as a bug. I think the devs are pretty happy with the FM right now, and dont plan anything major in changes that I know of.

[LURKINGBADGER]

The 109 is perfect how it is.