Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[Reaper6]

Synthetic aperture radar shall solve all the issues with landed helis. ))) get rekt by RB05 in the future.

 

But shoutout to reaper and le mi8 pilots you are doing a good job at keeping our CAP busy. XD

 

Thank you :)

 

Reaper6

[Jester Darrak]

I'm a little disappointed that the 80's scenario is just half-baked. If we put the missile performance (scratch last word, non-existant) and the obvious MiG-29S and M2K issues aside, we see that RED clearly has an advantage over BLUE.

 

The fact that it just takes 2 choppers to take over an airfield and the chances to find those two choppers are slim to none changed the dynamic of previous rounds. In round 6 both coalitions could deploy Blacksharks, Hips, Hueys and Gazelles what made it balanced when it comes to taking over airfields and FARPs.

 

You can't overlook the fact that during the prime time with even numbers it just turned into airquake while one attack helo and one transport helo took over FARO by FARP and airfield by airfield. To counter the firepower of one Blackshark and one Hip, BLUE would need 3 Gazelles and what, 10 Hueys? Just comparing the amount of missiles and rockets. But then there is the speed advantage both choppers have over the Gazelle and Huey and the amount of abuse it can take. Not to mention the KA-50 came into service in the early 90s and only in small numbers. I bet that every KA-50 that entered service was destroyed within the first 2 days.

 

I know that it's hard to balance it when there are no equivalents to every airframe in DCS inventory (Apache, Blackhawk) but then there should be other ways to balance. CAP is life, but Helos win games.

 

So yes, RED, enjoy your victory. And feel free to brag'n troll, I don't care anymore, I'll just keep air quaking.

 

And Kudos to every BLUE chopper pilot that went to great lenghts fuel trucking, setting up assets and flying to contested airfields. You are our unsung heroes!

[Enduro14]

sounds like your attitude is part of blues problem. Maybe re-think your tactics instead of defaulting to Air Quake....

[M0ltar]

Yeah the A10c does not exist.

Yeah there is not at least 5 mig21 drivers that is what they fly the most when we don't fly choppers. Not to mention that the 21 is not match against a f15 or m2000... Even worst when you have 10 guys and you need them all in vehicles and you don't have GCI... so ACTUALLY we are bait for all the fighters on blue side...

 

Yup the difference is red planes and choppers are overpower and easier that is why.

 

 

Regarding the F4 and Mig29.. I don't know. I can say that the F4 when you are in heli is lethal... Because as all AI it has the All seeing eye something that a human does not have.

 

Yes, you guys have the 21, we have the F5. This point is even for both teams. Blue lacks GCI just as much as Red does and we have people that fly the F5 and just fly in and die just like you have the 21.

 

On the fact of the F4 vs 29... First I don't understand why Blue has a jet that was created in a totally separate era from the 29. Second, why in the world do the F4's fail to even take off half of the time? A lot of the time they don't even leave the tarmac, they just sit on the ramp short of runway.

 

I dont understand.... BLue you have the freaking A10c and allot of terrain out their. Terrain mask you dont need cap as desperately as you say you do. Also use the gun after taking the heater and sam threats out.

Im literally salvating at getting back in the hog but i will stick with red and the mi8 ka50. Heck i mostly cleared out a farp in a lone su25A with no cap and just utilizing the terrain. Maybe you guys and gals need to get a meet together and discuss the proper way of flying the A10c. Its not a CLOUD DANCER.

 

Keep it up Red

 

The major problem a lot of Blue pilots have with the A10C is that they don't really know how to fly it well. People fly into an AO, find 1 target with the TGP, and then engage it without a full knowledge of what else lies in the AO and what threats will be faced.

 

Next issue is that the majority of Reds aerodromes do not have terrain to get cover behind. Tell me what terrain I can use for masking for Krasnador C and P, Maykop, Vody, Mozdok, Beslan, and Nelchic? Yes, I know Nelchic and Beslan are kind of close to the mountains, but they are way too far away to use for terrain masking. By the time most people are in weapons range they are being engaged by SA8s. Not everyone has the ability to fly the A10C at 50ft and lower off the ground to avoid radar SAMs.

 

We can dance around this topic all day, but fact of the matter that I think people are continually trying to bring up is that the KA50 can fly with really no problem under the radar of radar SAMs. On top of that it has enough ordnance to blow up an airfield on its own and it can call it bombers! Yes, the KA50 pilots that I see like Reaper have a lot of skill, but what people are upset about is that the KA50 is being compared to the Gazelle and the A10C. If I engage an airfield with the A10C I am at risk to fighters. Do you know how hard it is to find a KA50 with jet even with GCI and no electro optical? There is a reason why Red typically sees 3-4 F15s looking for a KA50. You can't find them. Sometimes you can get lucky and get a radar lock in flood mode, but most of the time we have to see them visually.

 

Now, saying all of this, I don't think there is anything wrong with the KA50 in its present condition. I think it takes a lot of skill. I think it takes a lot of skill to fly and use correctly. However, people comparing it to the A10C are not doing themselves any favors. These are 2 completely different air frames. One of them can be seen by enemy fighters from a long way off and the other is nearly impossible to find.

[Jester Darrak]

Oh please, do tell me what I should do. I'm so desperate. Enlighten me with your almighty wisdom! You just don't get my point. RED helos have a stellar advantage over BLUE helos. RED planes can find BLUE helos with EOS once a rough location is determined. RED EOS can look through clouds. And now, please, if it was the other way around, how would you work against it? More players? More aircraft, more air quake? You do know that the bigger a force is that the harder is it to coordinate it. RED might take the shorter straw in air combat when it comes to uneven teams. But RED literally needs 2 helos to cut off BLUE supplies.

 

sounds like your attitude is part of blues problem. Maybe re-think your tactics instead of defaulting to Air Quake....

[M0ltar]

sounds like your attitude is part of blues problem. Maybe re-think your tactics instead of defaulting to Air Quake....

 

If you think that, why not give a suggestion instead of flaming the person. He gave points in his argument. You provided a flame piece just meant to upset people.

 

This is what this thread turns into. People bring something up that they think is unbalanced and people flame them for it. Why don't we instead provide reasons why its not unbalanced instead of always defaulting into the flame war that comes after.

 

Enduro14, how do you propose we hunt helicopters when Reds entire team is overhead in CAP and we lack EOS? If blue had to take those airfields it would require, by the logic of people comparing the KA50 to the A10C, A10C's overhead. What would happen to them? They would be shot down by defending CAP.

Edited August 8, 2016 by M0ltar

[Enduro14]

Well i fly in 3d so even out of the mountains i see allot of great cover and concealment of rolling terrain. Like you said it takes allot of hours behind the stick of an A10c to get that 3rd sense developed to fly that low.

 

Heres one thing i will sort of concede on ya the ka50 is badass in the right hands no doubt but so is the gazelle. I recommend to the Admins that the bombers come off the ka50 and given to mi8 and also increase the range for the reacon as 5km is kind of lame sort of like how we make our snipers get within 200 meters on stalks. Standoff is key to success.

Also by increasing the range of the recon from say the 5km to 9 or 10 km that is is more inline with what the optical systems can do on the gazelle. Which i just answered my own question why doesnt the mi8 have the bombers oh duh it doesnt have a targeting system....?

[holimoli]

Oh please, do tell me what I should do. I'm so desperate. Enlighten me with your almighty wisdom! You just don't get my point. RED helos have a stellar advantage over BLUE helos. RED planes can find BLUE helos with EOS once a rough location is determined. RED EOS can look through clouds. And now, please, if it was the other way around, how would you work against it? More players? More aircraft, more air quake? You do know that the bigger a force is that the harder is it to coordinate it. RED might take the shorter straw in air combat when it comes to uneven teams. But RED literally needs 2 helos to cut off BLUE supplies.

 

-Blue fighters can pull unlimited amount of g.

[M0ltar]

Well i fly in 3d so even out of the mountains i see allot of great cover and concealment of rolling terrain. Like you said it takes allot of hours behind the stick of an A10c to get that 3rd sense developed to fly that low.

 

Heres one thing i will sort of concede on ya the ka50 is badass in the right hands no doubt but so is the gazelle. I recommend to the Admins that the bombers come off the ka50 and given to mi8 and also increase the range for the reacon as 5km is kind of lame sort of like how we make our snipers get within 200 meters on stalks. Standoff is key to success.

Also by increasing the range of the recon from say the 5km to 9 or 10 km that is is more inline with what the optical systems can do on the gazelle. Which i just answered my own question why doesnt the mi8 have the bombers oh duh it doesnt have a targeting system....?

 

This is the kind of conversation I can get behind!

 

I agree that there are some small rolling hills for airfields and I have no issue using them, but a lot of people do.

 

I agree that It is kind of lame that the KA50 has bombers, but I am willing to deal with it because they can be shot down, but maybe we could decrease the volume that is able to be called in by setting a timer on the frequency?

[microvax]

 

This is what this thread turns into. People bring something up that they think is unbalanced and people flame them for it. Why don't we instead provide reasons why its not unbalanced instead of always defaulting into the flame war that comes after.

 

 

Yep. Could not agree more.

 

 

 

And I hate the guy which shot me down with mig29 which didnt apparently need 4 min for alignment to get correct headings from gci and could see me until the last second through clouds with IRST before I got le radar lock. :D

 

Its not your fault the mig29 is the way it is I just hate you very personally :DD :P :megalol:

[M0ltar]

-Blue fighters can pull unlimited amount of g.

 

F15 pilots int he sim blackout all the time due to over g. I know the Su27 breaks its wings, but that is real. I think there was a conversation about this either in this thread or the FC3 thread where people we saying that the F15 can actually pull really high g in real life it just decreases the life of the air frame in the long run.

 

Can the 29 no pull unlimited g the same as the 15 can?

[Jester Darrak]

Great idea. Now an Mi-8 can take a FARP in a glimpse. Do you even think before you post because this would shift the balance even more towards RED as only one helo will be required to take a FARP and that goes completely against the spirit of cooperation that BlueFag is all about. And about the rolling terrain: As Moltar said, it's just not enough cover at said airfields to roll up and down in an A-10. For a chopper it might be fine because it's slower and is even able to land and wait until enemy CAP leaves the area. Plus to find you is very hard without EOS.

 

Well i fly in 3d so even out of the mountains i see allot of great cover and concealment of rolling terrain. Like you said it takes allot of hours behind the stick of an A10c to get that 3rd sense developed to fly that low.

 

Heres one thing i will sort of concede on ya the ka50 is badass in the right hands no doubt but so is the gazelle. I recommend to the Admins that the bombers come off the ka50 and given to mi8 and also increase the range for the reacon as 5km is kind of lame sort of like how we make our snipers get within 200 meters on stalks. Standoff is key to success.

Also by increasing the range of the recon from say the 5km to 9 or 10 km that is is more inline with what the optical systems can do on the gazelle. Which i just answered my own question why doesnt the mi8 have the bombers oh duh it doesnt have a targeting system....?

[Jester Darrak]

Even if it was true, which it is not, I can't just land on the contested airfield and raise the colours. Choppers are the problem.

 

-Blue fighters can pull unlimited amount of g.

[M0ltar]

Great idea. Now an Mi-8 can take a FARP in a glimpse. Do you even think before you post because this would shift the balance even more towards RED as only one helo will be required to take a FARP and that goes completely against the spirit of cooperation that BlueFag is all about. And about the rolling terrain: As Moltar said, it's just not enough cover at said airfields to roll up and down in an A-10. For a chopper it might be fine because it's slower and is even able to land and wait until enemy CAP leaves the area. Plus to find you is very hard without EOS.

 

He did say in his post that the MI8 should NOT be able to call in bombers because of its lack of sensors.

 

Also by increasing the range of the recon from say the 5km to 9 or 10 km that is is more inline with what the optical systems can do on the gazelle. Which i just answered my own question why doesnt the mi8 have the bombers oh duh it doesnt have a targeting system....?

[microvax]

-Blue fighters can pull unlimited amount of g.

 

The planes can, the problem is mostly the pilots blacking out. xD

 

The mirage has a destruction load of 12g with double security.

 

But in normal mode its limited to 7 or 8. Afaik thats not more or less then your flanker. We just have a limiter in that thing. You dont.

 

EDIT: Fixed gain allows you to pretty much wreck your plane beyond 300kt very easily. So you dont wanna use that. Also it makes the thing unstable on supersonic.

Edited August 8, 2016 by microvax

[M0ltar]

The planes can, the problem is mostly the pilots blacking out. xD

 

The mirage has a destruction load of 12g with double security.

 

But in normal mode its limited to 7 or 8. Afaik thats not more or less then your flanker. We just have a limiter in that thing. You dont.

 

The fact of the matter is if you learn about western vs eastern doctrine on plane engineering, the western planes have aids that prevent the pilot from killing his plane. The Russian pilots are expected to be trained to not destroy their jets on their own. Im not making this up if you don't know already. This is something that the Russian designers intended for the aircraft. They expect the pilot to know the limits instead of having aids to stop them.

[Enduro14]

If you think that, why not give a suggestion instead of flaming the person. He gave points in his argument. You provided a flame piece just meant to upset people.

 

This is what this thread turns into. People bring something up that they think is unbalanced and people flame them for it. Why don't we instead provide reasons why its not unbalanced instead of always defaulting into the flame war that comes after.

 

Enduro14, how do you propose we hunt helicopters when Reds entire team is overhead in CAP and we lack EOS? If blue had to take those airfields it would require, by the logic of people comparing the KA50 to the A10C, A10C's overhead. What would happen to them? They would be shot down by defending CAP.

 

Well i absolutely have no idea what you guys are doing but i would start with a dedicated crews of Huey and Gazzelles. They team up Gazzelle has rwr and go insert ewr systems close to your areas of operation especially your defensive zones.

Second more crews need to setup Kubs. Dont just throw them every where anticipate the most likely avenues of approach the enemy will take to attack your tgts. Analyze the terrain, map recons.

 

A10c fellas you need to stop taking huge loads your max combat load should be at max 2 mavericks, and 4 gbu38, plus gun, AA if you think you need it most likely you will. TGp and Jammer also. Use your stand off weapons to take out sam threats and finish everything else with gun. Along with this have an orbiting cap not co located with you but enough stand off as to not alert ewr and any of our fighters. Use the terrain for infil again map recon you may not be in the mountains but their is many areas you lose Line of sight on an A10c at very low level.

Also work with a dedicated heli crews to emplace kubs in a fall back zone if you are comprimised and drag pursuers to it if possible.

Yes red has a terrain advantage but it has both plus and minus for us as well.

 

One thing overall i will comment on we desperately need collidable trees on this map ive seen shenanigans on both sides, heck ive done some wild ass maneuvers that would of killed me if the trees where solid.

 

Hunting the helis well like you said you dont have the advantage of eos ok well we do it old school heads out of the pit we fortunately have a zoom function aka binos view right? Also you have to think tacticaly like a heli pilot where would you hide where would you setup your FFP? Again you know Farp A is being attacked and have no gci to vector you ok terrain what is the terrain, cities?

I will tell you after the round where i have Hid in a mi8 the biggest heli we have from many of Mirage and f-15 and still have my engines running. Something i always tell guys about the ka50 is its a sniper with coaxial rotors and i employ allot of those similiar tactics with it. But to be honest ive spend most my time in the mi8 this round.

 

Hey guys im not trying to flame you at all, Violence of action will get you only so far think tactically and organize and i think you will suprise your self.

 

Crom ps sorry for any misspelling ...

Edited August 8, 2016 by Enduro14

[Jester Darrak]

Doesn't the Flanker just have an AoA limiter while the Mirage has a g-limiter? At least that would explain it since the higher the speed, the higher the g at same AoA.

[microvax]

The fact of the matter is if you learn about western vs eastern doctrine on plane engineering, the western planes have aids that prevent the pilot from killing his plane. The Russian pilots are expected to be trained to not destroy their jets on their own. Im not making this up if you don't know already. This is something that the Russian designers intended for the aircraft. They expect the pilot to know the limits instead of having aids to stop them.

 

Yep, I know. :) Edited my post to make it clear that the FBW is just preventing you from destroying your plane. :D

 

Viggen will be fun, one of the few planes on the western side which will be similar to the russian ones in that regard. Nothing keeping you from destroying your plane. But thats mostly to late 60s early 70s design. Not doctrine. :D

[microvax]

Doesn't the Flanker just have an AoA limiter while the Mirage has a g-limiter? At least that would explain it since the higher the speed, the higher the g at same AoA.

 

Naaah the mirage FBW give you as much authority over the plane until either AOA or G limit is reached. You can force it over the AOA limit if you stall obviously but normally you cant.

Roll rate is also limited by load factor.

 

Glorious FBW

 

There is more to the FBW then just AOA and G.

Edited August 8, 2016 by microvax

[Jester Darrak]

As it is right now BLUE needs one or 2 A-10Cs, depending on the layout, to take down all defences on an airfield plus a considerable amount of CAP, at least 8 aircraft staggered in 4 groups. Then 2+ helos to actually make it. There we have 12 aircraft for a successful takeover.

 

Let's apply the math to RED: 2 Helos.

 

That is what actually happens during blue flag. Sure, we could (!) go in with 3 or 4 Gazelles and 1 or 2 additional Hueys. But that increases the chance to get detected and shot down. And if you lose only one Gazelle the whole operation is doomed unsuccessful. Not to mention CAP is still needed because of the EOS.

 

Well i absolutely have no idea what you guys are doing but i would start with a dedicated crews of Huey and Gazzelles. They team up Gazzelle has rwr and go insert ewr systems close to your areas of operation especially your defensive zones.

Second more crews need to setup Kubs. Dont just throw them every where anticipate the most likely avenues of approach the enemy will take to attack your tgts. Analyze the terrain, map recons.

 

A10c fellas you need to stop taking huge loads your max combat load should be at max 2 mavericks, and 4 gbu38, plus gun, AA if you think you need it most likely you will. TGp and Jammer also. Use your stand off weapons to take out sam threats and finish everything else with gun. Along with this have an orbiting cap not co located with you but enough stand off as to not alert ewr and any of our fighters. Use the terrain for infil again map recon you may not be in the mountains but their is many areas you lose Line of sight on an A10c at very low level.

Also work with a dedicated heli crews to emplace kubs in a fall back zone if you are comprimised and drag pursuers to it if possible.

Yes red has a terrain advantage but it has both plus and minus for us as well.

 

One thing overall i will comment on we desperately need collidable trees on this map ive seen shenanigans on both sides, heck ive done some wild ass maneuvers that would of killed me if the trees where solid.

 

Hunting the helis well like you said you dont have the advantage of eos ok well we do it old school heads out of the pit we fortunately have a zoom function aka binos view right? Also you have to think tacticaly like a heli pilot where would you hide where would you setup your FFP? Again you know Farp A is being attacked and have no gci to vector you ok terrain what is the terrain, cities?

I will tell you after the round where i have Hid in a mi8 the biggest heli we have from many of Mirage and f-15 and still have my engines running. Something i always tell guys about the ka50 is its a sniper with coaxial rotors and i employ allot of those similiar tactics with it. But to be honest ive spend most my time in the mi8 this round.

 

Hey guys im not trying to flame you at all, Violence of action will get you only so far think tactically and organize and i think you will suprise your self.

 

Crom ps sorry for any misspelling ...

Edited August 8, 2016 by Jester Darrak

[Pronin]

Im not understanding.

 

Blue fail to kill two helicopters because CAP too strong, they lose farp.

 

Red fail to kill one A-10 and one huey because CAP too strong, we lose farp.

 

What is problem with this??????

If you know KA50 is strong, shoot it with missile. It will not know its coming.

[Beeroshima]

I dont understand.... BLue you have the freaking A10c and allot of terrain out their. Terrain mask you dont need cap as desperately as you say you do. Also use the gun after taking the heater and sam threats out.

Im literally salvating at getting back in the hog but i will stick with red and the mi8 ka50. Heck i mostly cleared out a farp in a lone su25A with no cap and just utilizing the terrain. Maybe you guys and gals need to get a meet together and discuss the proper way of flying the A10c. Its not a CLOUD DANCER.

 

Keep it up Red

Go terrain mask while trying to take krasnador....oh wait. There's nothing but miles of flat ground.

 

Sent while I should be working instead.

[Jester Darrak]

I will take the freedom to correct you there:

 

Im not understanding.

 

Blue fail to kill two helicopters because CAP too strong, they lose airfield.

Red fail to kill one A-10 and one huey because CAP too strong, we lose farp.

 

 

Not to mention: A-10 is easy to find, helos aren't. Why can't you understand this?

 

Im not understanding.

 

Blue fail to kill two helicopters because CAP too strong, they lose farp.

 

Red fail to kill one A-10 and one huey because CAP too strong, we lose farp.

 

What is problem with this??????

If you know KA50 is strong, shoot it with missile. It will not know its coming.

[Ktulu2]

Shoot at a chopper with missiles...You musn't have done much cap to suggest such a thing.