Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[Reaper6]

Yup, apart from the moments when you detect an mi8 in a valley from 45 000ft fox 1 him at mach1.6 and its as banterous as it gets.

 

We have been practicing this during this testing round. I think Red is developing a lot better tactics for the Mi8 pilot survivability. I also have been doing some flight hours in the Mi8 to better understand. I think before I just thought they could pretty much do things the Ka50 could do and left it at that. Also integrating them into the Attack plan is a great step forward, especially with more units at airfields. It also gives them something to kill other than just flying around dropping things off everywhere.

 

Reaper6

[microvax]

I guess in a way I do depend on my 1950s TV technology lol. Nothing against Blue but I think Red is more into tactics than Blue. We most of the time have to because of the numbers(Not to bring that crappy topic up again). I have never flown Blue so I am no expert what they do over there. They just seem to have more unseasoned pilots than Red has.

 

Reaper6

 

I have been running round 6,7 and 8. Usually when blue is steamrolling its because at least some people got a coordinated strike going, blue starts loosing ground when nobody is there to do GCI and coordination even of uncoordinated flights. And blue tends to start to push back when the veterans show up again since blue is in trouble. :D

 

And honestly last one is the most exciting imho. :D

 

Most memeworthy moment in round 8 for myself was when I was literally merged with a meme 21 for freakin 6 minutes before he crashed into the ground. Both fox1s missed, then both fox2s missed, then loads of lead went past him and I only got one short burst on target. Then I literally stayed on his 6 for 4 minutes until he crashed into the next best mountain. xD

 

GCI was like "can somebody finally kill that mig21, micro is merged for 5 minutes now". xD

:lol:

[Reaper6]

Consider that you actually have a really modern TV, much more modern than the real deal :)

 

The real Shkval is very low resolution and distortion from optics will cause problems the further out you look. It should be quite adequate at dealing your targets within Vikhr range and a bit beyond, but if I think about you mentioning looking for fighters with it and how far away you see them, that sounds fishy. It's possible that it might work out like this RL, but still fishy :)

 

Granted though, you don't have the benefit of an RWR or anything like that.

 

As for tactics, yes, having less technology outright forces you to tactics more, just IMHO. All those tactics can be countered, but peeps who never used them before are highly vulnerable to them because this type of flying is just not in their mindset. IMHO.

 

I have never seen an actual Shkval up close, but have seen it in YouTube videos. It seems to be pretty high resolution from what I've seen? It's not an easy task spotting air or ground targets at 40-50km, but not impossible. Ground targets not so much, but seeing something pretty much a dot in the sky of nothing is somewhat easy. Blue also tends to fly their Helis at around 100-200m AGL for some reason, not sure what that's all about...

 

Reaper6

[microvax]

We have been practicing this during this testing round. I think Red is developing a lot better tactics for the Mi8 pilot survivability. I also have been doing some flight hours in the Mi8 to better understand. I think before I just thought they could pretty much do things the Ka50 could do and left it at that. Also integrating them into the Attack plan is a great step forward, especially with more units at airfields. It also gives them something to kill other than just flying around dropping things off everywhere.

 

Reaper6

 

The elphant in the room was, that I didnt check speed, I expected it to be some kind of pesky su27 in the valley. I noticed literally only when I was diving from space that it was a heli. Felt a little bad for him ^^.

 

The Mi8 is a great piece of equipment, got my first air to air kill with it in blueflag. xD

What I personally consider the mi8s huge advantage over the huey is the s8koms.

 

An mi8 can deal with respawned bunkers 0 problem while a huey needs to rely on the mortar troops.

 

Its just the way better heli compared to the huey imho, from a technical standpoint.

 

Well i would be up flying, but #nvidiacantintodriverz.

[Reaper6]

I have been running round 6,7 and 8. Usually when blue is steamrolling its because at least some people got a coordinated strike going, blue starts loosing ground when nobody is there to do GCI and coordination even of uncoordinated flights. And blue tends to start to push back when the veterans show up again since blue is in trouble. :D

 

And honestly last one is the most exciting imho. :D

 

Most memeworthy moment in round 8 for myself was when I was literally merged with a meme 21 for freakin 6 minutes before he crashed into the ground. Both fox1s missed, then both fox2s missed, then loads of lead went past him and I only got one short burst on target. Then I literally stayed on his 6 for 4 minutes until he crashed into the next best mountain. xD

 

GCI was like "can somebody finally kill that mig21, micro is merged for 5 minutes now". xD

:lol:

 

I think when you press an attack with 30 pilots, there really isn't a need for seasoned pilots or tactics. Not a whole lot red could have done during these scenarios, other than sit back and take as many with you as possible.

 

Reaper6

[Reaper6]

The elphant in the room was, that I didnt check speed, I expected it to be some kind of pesky su27 in the valley. I noticed literally only when I was diving from space that it was a heli. Felt a little bad for him ^^.

 

The Mi8 is a great piece of equipment, got my first air to air kill with it in blueflag. xD

What I personally consider the mi8s huge advantage over the huey is the s8koms.

 

An mi8 can deal with respawned bunkers 0 problem while a huey needs to rely on the mortar troops.

 

Its just the way better heli compared to the huey imho, from a technical standpoint.

 

Well i would be up flying, but #nvidiacantintodriverz.

 

Just tell your people to stop flying so high in those Helis, and then it will be harder for me to spot them :) Hueys have the capability to carry rockets don't they?

 

Reaper6

[microvax]

I think when you press an attack with 30 pilots, there really isn't a need for seasoned pilots or tactics. Not a whole lot red could have done during these scenarios, other than sit back and take as many with you as possible.

 

Reaper6

 

Nah, I dont really like to participate in the steamrolls by by far outnumbering red. I am talking about the attacks where we actually roll in with 2 a10c 2 huey 3-4 f15 and actually make it work.

[microvax]

Just tell your people to stop flying so high in those Helis, and then it will be harder for me to spot them :) Hueys have the capability to carry rockets don't they?

 

Reaper6

 

I am doing that. xD Yes they can carry rockets but no HEAT rockets which do anything to bunkers.

s8KOMs just murder bunkers.

[Reaper6]

Nah, I dont really like to participate in the steamrolls by by far outnumbering red. I am talking about the attacks where we actually roll in with 2 a10c 2 huey 3-4 f15 and actually make it work.

 

You're a better man than I then. If red ever organizes that many aircraft at one time, I believe we would steam roll the entire map. And I would be happy to participate in the carnage :)

 

Reaper6

[M460]

The elphant in the room was, that I didnt check speed, I expected it to be some kind of pesky su27 in the valley. I noticed literally only when I was diving from space that it was a heli. Felt a little bad for him ^^.

 

The Mi8 is a great piece of equipment, got my first air to air kill with it in blueflag. xD

What I personally consider the mi8s huge advantage over the huey is the s8koms.

 

An mi8 can deal with respawned bunkers 0 problem while a huey needs to rely on the mortar troops.

 

Its just the way better heli compared to the huey imho, from a technical standpoint.

 

Well i would be up flying, but #nvidiacantintodriverz.

 

 

Huey uses M-151 rockets that can take out bunkers.

[GGTharos]

Around 3:00

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

It's a 320x200 system, if I'm not mistaken. And the contrast is good old TV stuff, not the modern CCDs, so you get a lot of blooming, crummy contrast etc compared to modern sensors :)

 

As for helis flying 100-200m, that's pretty normal for cruise. NOE is not the most used heli transit mode, rather used as necessary because it is (or should be) dangerous.

 

I have never seen an actual Shkval up close, but have seen it in YouTube videos. It seems to be pretty high resolution from what I've seen? It's not an easy task spotting air or ground targets at 40-50km, but not impossible. Ground targets not so much, but seeing something pretty much a dot in the sky of nothing is somewhat easy. Blue also tends to fly their Helis at around 100-200m AGL for some reason, not sure what that's all about...

 

Reaper6

[Reaper6]

Around 3:00

 

 

It's a 320x200 system, if I'm not mistaken. And the contrast is good old TV stuff, not the modern CCDs, so you get a lot of blooming, crummy contrast etc compared to modern sensors :)

 

As for helis flying 100-200m, that's pretty normal for cruise. NOE is not the most used heli transit mode, rather used as necessary because it is (or should be) dangerous.

 

That video you are showing is from the Ka50N, and is showing the Thermal image. TV lines are limited with thermal imagining, and range is of course decreased. ALso just to note, the target boards stand out like they are because of thermal blankets/tape. Also used at target ranges in the U.S.

 

Reaper6

Edited August 23, 2016 by Reaper6

[BSS_Sniper]

There is already radar ground clutter. The very thing that allows the rejection of this clutter in look-down-shoot-down radars is the exact same thing that makes it impossible for a helicopter to hide from the modern radar by just hovering (or landing and keeping the rotor spinning).

 

A MiG-29 might get a jamming strobe, while more capable radar sets will initially show a large target speed, which will quickly be averaged out by the distance measurement.

 

That's why modern helicopters carry ECM, because the only other way to protect yourself from a SAM or fighter is to break LOS.

 

Right now helis have it really good from an enemy sensors detection and tracking perspective - unrealistically good.

 

Not with the APG63 v1 that should be what this F15 is using. It's a Doppler radar that should have ground clutter that would cover helis flying NOE. The way things are you can see the helicopter sitting on the ground as long as the engines are on like they are at 10k. The radars, especially the limitations are not represented well in this sim.

[BSS_Sniper]

If you recall the F-15E that bombed a heli, that heli was detected while on the ground from 50nm away. The radar was never taken out of air to air search - they used it to initially cue the targeting pod.

 

The two blackhawks which were tragically blue-on-blued were detected from ~40nm while travelling in a valley. The two F-15's used a 120 and a 9, two shots, two hits, despite evasive maneuvers by the second heli.

 

Now you're talking about an F15E with modern radar, not an F15C with an older radar as should be in DCS. Is this older model F15C supposed to be modeled with a modern radar or what should be correct given the aircraft?

Edited August 23, 2016 by BSS_Sniper

[microvax]

Huey uses M-151 rockets that can take out bunkers.

 

Didnt know that, will have to try that out.

[Reaper6]

Didnt know that, will have to try that out.

 

Then Huey pilots have to give up their precious mini-guns :) I would recommend stay with guns...

 

Reaper6

[GGTharos]

The APG-70 and APG-63v1 are effectively the same radar. The differences are in A2G radar modes, and manufacturing techniques. Air to air capability is the same.

 

The F-15 APG-63 MSIP was capable of this, if not an earlier incarnation of it - that radar had been seriously upgraded by the mid-80's already, even though there had been no official 'V1' rebuild at that time IIRC. And those upgrades have not stopped ;)

 

Here's more unpleasant news: The F-18's radar should have absolutely no problem with this either, nor should AWACS, and probably the Mirage 2000C shouldn't have any problems with that either. Guiding something older than a 120B to a NOE heli might be an issue in terms of radar guided missiles, but SAMs would have less trouble in dealing with it, especially the ones with anti-heli modifications (the problems lie with the missile seekers and most likely the fuzing mechanisms, rather than detection and tracking by the offending radar).

 

Now you're talking about an F15E with modern radar, not an F15C with an older radar as should be in DCS. Is this older model F15C supposed to be modeled with a modern radar or what should be correct given the aircraft?

Edited August 23, 2016 by GGTharos

[microvax]

Not with the APG63 v1 that should be what this F15 is using. It's a Doppler radar that should have ground clutter that would cover helis flying NOE. The way things are you can see the helicopter sitting on the ground as long as the engines are on like they are at 10k. The radars, especially the limitations are not represented well in this sim.

 

Thats the beauty of a doppler radar, anything that moves differnt to the plane then the ground is a visible target. Ground clutter DENIED

 

Even without doppler shift filters trimmed for helicopter detection, you still should get a target recognition as long as the echo is strong enough.

 

And If we want to know about that range, welllllll, ask the military what kind of gain their amplifiers and antenna has and how their emitting power look like. They will tell us for sure. :D

 

Correct is that the speed indication should be wanky until its getting nullified by range factor.

 

With the f18 you should be able to just go synthetic aperture radar, I guess. :D

[GGTharos]

There are studies showing helicopter rotor echoes - actual video readings from real radars, not simulaitons.

 

Let's just say you can see them quite far.

[microvax]

There are studies showing helicopter rotor echoes - actual video readings from real radars, not simulaitons.

 

Let's just say you can see them quite far.

 

Yee, duty cycle at high PRF should lead exactly to that, but good to know there is public infor. :thumbup:

 

 

BTW: My first try at something Video thingy.

Wild mix of an Sortie recap, a kill, and a little bluefor communications standard. :D

 

Was one of the early sorties of mine in round 8, and one of the most enjoyable ones. I did even get close to running out of fuel in a heli in blueflag.

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

[so funny because you can literally hear how i didnt really buy GCIs "he's right on top of you". :D Actually at 2:50 you can see reaper passing through the FOV for literally 2 seconds. :D]

Edited August 23, 2016 by microvax

[DackSter94]

Blue had same issue with refueling on FARPS during official round.

[Yuya6104]

Greg how come at Beslan there is only 1 Mirarge 2000C would be better least have 2?

[Reaper6]

Yee, duty cycle at high PRF should lead exactly to that, but good to know there is public infor. :thumbup:

 

 

BTW: My first try at something Video thingy.

Wild mix of an Sortie recap, a kill, and a little bluefor communications standard. :D

 

Was one of the early sorties of mine in round 8, and one of the most enjoyable ones. I did even get close to running out of fuel in a heli in blueflag.

 

 

 

[so funny because you can literally hear how i didnt really buy GCIs "he's right on top of you". :D Actually at 2:50 you can see reaper passing through the FOV for literally 2 seconds. :D]

 

Your GCI has a potty mouth lol! Great video, great kill. Good learning experience for myself and adjustment of tactics to prevent this scenario in the future.

 

Reaper6

[Yuya6104]

Odd so dead on the testing for round 9. How come blue?

[microvax]

Your GCI has a potty mouth lol! Great video, great kill. Good learning experience for myself and adjustment of tactics to prevent this scenario in the future.

 

Reaper6

 

:D We have a wide range of very different GCIs. :D Dunno who that was, I think I only heard him one time.

 

Thanks for the Kudos, yeah never engage a gazelle in a knife fight. :D Just dont. :D Except its a mistral version. :D