Magnetic Trim - Use it OR Not ?

[Mt5_Roie]

I did a quick flight in the Huey with it and it was pretty cool. The real issue is the besides the Sidewinder, the Logitech 940 is the only other FFB option I see. At around 400 bucks, that makes it an expensive one too....and since I already have a hotas setup and rudder - can't really justify getting another one. Also, the lack of buttons on the Sidewinder and the bulky look to it might keep it off my flying list, since I tend to prefer more realistic controllers.

 

But....we have a FFB stick that works. So coding will start shortly.

[Drakoz]

Thankfully, the Microsoft FFB 2 is probably the best FFB stick ever made, and the one I would suggest any DCS developers get to test their FFB. Then hopefully depend on a few beta testers with the 940 or others to confirm how it works. Maybe the Logitech 940 is the only other stick you can compare to. But there are enough MS FFB 2's that people can generally get them for $30 to $50 shipped off eBay in excellent condition. The 940 is so rare it tends to sell for insane prices.

 

There are some other FFB sticks (Logitech and other brands) that are absolutely horrible. It's the gimbals that make the difference, but also the motor and gear design. The MS FFB 2 has an excellent consumer grade (plastic) gimbal and gear design with good motors. The older Microsoft ForceFeedback Pro is also an OK design, but doesn't have as good of motors as the FFB 2, and you need to build a Adapt-FFB-Joy circuit (Google it) to convert the old 15 pin connector to USB. Once you do, it works, and quite well. But the FFB 2 is noticeably better.

 

Really, the big reason for using a FFB stick with a helicopter sim is the lack of springs. I can't imagine flying a helicopter with a HOTAS Warthog or Cougar (or any other sprung stick) due to the center detent effect. The FFB motors are used to create resistance and spring feel (for autopilot or flight assistance systems on a helicopter), and also model the trim or magnetic brake functions correctly. So I deal with the lack of buttons by doubling and tripping up buttons on my Warthog throttle just so I can use a MS FFB 2 stick.

 

The major downside of the MS FFB 2 is the stick has a small dead zone in the center which you cannot program out. The software that came with the FFB 2 allowed changing rates and dead zones, but even if that software worked in Win7/8/8.1/10 (it does not), it cannot get rid of the dead zone.

 

It is frustrating to not have all the hats and buttons from my Warthog, though. So I will eventually design a FFB base to mount my Warthog/Cougar stick on. But that's a whole other discussion (and yes, I do know how big of a project that is, but it's much easier than it might seem). It's too bad nobody is making FFB for flight sticks. A little surprising considering that car race sims all have FFB wheels, but we aren't getting the FFB love for flight sims.

 

Regards,

Michael

[Aginor]

If you want a quick test done with the G940 just PM me. ;)

[Focha]

I just got the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with USB today so will test it this week sometime. If all goes well, will ship to Pat so he can have it to add the code.

 

Really good news! Thank you.

[molevitch]

I just got the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with USB today so will test it this week sometime. If all goes well, will ship to Pat so he can have it to add the code.

Excellent news! I have to say that my quality of flying skills on the Huey, MI-8 and Ka-50 have all improved hugely since learning to fly the Gazelle. But I fly all of them with FFB. I have seen that a lot of DCS helo pilots use ffb sticks over the years. I find it the most immersive and credible option. My Warthog is gathering dust, though I tried it with the Gazelle the other day and it was great. But one wants to trim and have the stick stay where you put it, like in a real chopper.

 

And Drakoz, have you looked at this thread? http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...87#post1372687

I don't know if PeterP is still active on these forums, but he really inspired me with the concept of modding an old MSFFB2 stick.

[Drakoz]

And Drakoz, have you looked at this thread? http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...87#post1372687

I don't know if PeterP is still active on these forums, but he really inspired me with the concept of modding an old MSFFB2 stick.

 

An inspirational effort for sure. His article was one of many factors that got me started designing my own FFB stick.

 

The big compromise for most consumer FFB sticks was how to make a cheap but reliable consumer product using molded plastic for the gimbals and gears. Many of them failed with gimbals that broke or were worn out in short order. The MS FFB 2 was $200 retail when it came out some 15 years ago and they got it pretty right - meaning they did some significant stuff to make pieces of plastic work that well, smoothly, reliably, and without bearings! Impressive. But because I will machine my gimbals out of aluminum and use roller bearings, I don't have to worry about most of those issues.

 

Instead, my issue is picking the motors, and how to do the gearing. The motor choice, and the gearing from motor to gimbal axis is really the critical part in order to make sure the design can handle the weight of the stick, but still feel smooth, not notchy. The gearing is the weak part. Even using metal gears isn't necessarily reliable. The electronics and software is relatively easy, though. I do that for a living.

 

Ultimately, I've decided I just need to make something, see where it fails, iterate, learn, and eventually I'll figure out the right set of compromises to meet my goals. That being a FFB gimbal, electronics, and software that can be used in a DIY setup for making your own FFB stick.

 

Back to the original question for this thread:

This is kind of hijacking the thread, so apologies to the OP and anyone not interested in this. I guess it just points out how much my answer to the original question "Magnetic Trim - Use it OR Not ?" is a resounding yes! But you need to get a FFB stick to make it really worth it. I can't stand the thought of flying a helicopter sim without one. I remember there was great confusion about "magnetic trim" (or what ever it was called) on the Blackshark when it first came out. Most of that was because of how they tried to implement it using a non-FFB stick (press and hold the button, move the stick to center and release it). But with a FFB stick it is completely obvious what it does, why and how.

 

Regards,

Michael

[Krinje]

Even without a FFB stick the magnetic trim is a wonderful tool. Their really isn't a reason not to use it. It's easy to trim out the Heli in forward flight better than the autopilots, but you can also trim in a graceful turn or orbit. It practically flies itself. Generally speaking whenever I am changing flight profile I simply (magnetic) trim into what I want.

[SnowTiger]

I tried using the Magnetic Trim again and it seemed pretty useless considering the entire range of movement the stick ever needs to go can be done all with the Fine Trim (Hat).

[Cibit]

Snowtiger a quick question that I guess is related, I recently reinstalled DCSW and deleted my OB instal for space saving. In the OB I had curves set for X and Y axis. Adding these curves of 20% and

Saturation of 90% on both axis enabled me to use Magnetic trim more gently and fine tune with hatswitch trim. DO you have any changes to your axis? if not it may be worth a try. If anyone has the current thinking on curve and saturation settings please post as I am keen to know what the consensus is

:)

[SnowTiger]

I have the X55 Rhino.

I do have curves (I think around 15) and recently used "i think" 75% Saturation on the Roll Axis ONLY in the Gazelle so I wasn't rolling over all the time.

But due to the current necessity to have different firing buttons/trigger for HOT3 from the Rockets & Gun means I'm already down at least one button (that I would have otherwise used for Magnetic Trim). I use the same button for Trim in ALL other Mods.

But again due to Gazelle requirements, I also no longer have a Trim Reset Button because in the Gazelle I need that Cyclic button to do some other bloody thing (re: Hovering options).

In any case, I'm tired of frigging around with that silly Magnetic Trim switch and since I it supposed to be corrected (patched) to work the way it was intended, then as far as I understand it, it isn't required or useful UNLESS you have FFB Hotas/Cyclic. I don't.

So while I wish I still had a Cyclic button to use for Trim Reset, I don't and I definitely don't have a Trim Button because it's now used to fire HOT3's and my Trigger for Rockets/Gun ... it's stupid considering you can only fly the L Model or the M Model but never BOTH at the same time ... waste of buttons.

 

Anyway, I rarely ever touch saturation on any Mods until the Gazelle and my Curves are always mild.