RS-2US missile. How to use it?

[zerO_crash]

Never, I repeat never quote wiki. And your second pic is kind of useless without mentioning which MiG-21 version it is, unless taken out of context. Otherwise I`ve seen those docs before.

[firmek]

Never, I repeat never quote wiki.

Could you at least make some effort and try to point if there is anything wrong in the text that was quoted. Saying never just for the sake of it is not exactly constructive nor informative - as the whole your post.

 

And your second pic is kind of useless without mentioning which MiG-21

MiG-21bis, thoguh seems to be from other version of the manual or from some other source which I wasn't able to find in complete version. Nevertheless it's complementary to the tables which should be clear once you take an effort and read them (Polish is not required for that).

[Tarres]

The Zvezda K55 was an IR missile only.

 

As you can see in the Polish manual, the weapon selector page of the weapons section indicates that the R55 is an IR missile only.

 

And as you can see, RS2U, kh66, nuclear weapons, SPS pods and gunpods were added as gameplay features as Cobra has said.

[portman]

And as you can see, RS2U, kh66, nuclear weapons, SPS pods and gunpods were added as gameplay features as Cobra has said.

Interesting that the MiG-21bis LAZUR could carry the SPS-141 pod, but the MiG-21bis SAU (which we fly) could not.

[firmek]

The Zvezda K55 was an IR missile only.

 

As you can see in the Polish manual, the weapon selector page of the weapons section indicates that the R55 is an IR missile only.

 

And as you can see, RS2U, kh66, nuclear weapons, SPS pods and gunpods were added as gameplay features as Cobra has said.

Yes, the R-55 and RS-2US had a different guidance systems. If I undertand correctly however they had the same application which was fighting large and slow maneuverable (up to max 3G for R-55) targets.

[zerO_crash]

Could you at least make some effort and try to point if there is anything wrong in the text that was quoted. Saying never just for the sake of it is not exactly constructive nor informative - as the whole your post.

 

 

MiG-21bis, thoguh seems to be from other version of the manual or from some other source which I wasn't able to find in complete version. Nevertheless it's complementary to the tables which should be clear once you take an effort and read them (Polish is not required for that).

 

a) Because wiki is not a primary source. If you went through a decent schooling system, then you should know that wiki consists of info gathered (or imagined in cases where people are lazy) from primary or secondary sources. Parts of it maybe be right, but quoting it represents no value whatsoever. If you wish to reinforce your statement, use primary sources. This here kind of goes without saying.

 

b) I`ve taken the time to read those docs, as I was reading them before you even joined the forums it seems. Nevertheless I see nothing complementary about that picture where no model make is mentioned (detail too low to deduce type based on antenna placement) to the document in question. What is the point of it? Show me how mentioned weapons look? (amazing, knew it already...) I can read what is mentioned in the tables no problem, but you have to understand that not every country was using the full weapons assortment available for the MIG. Therefore, just because this doc doesn`t mention it proves nothing.

 

Now, we already agreed on stuff in this post before you linked more documents (which btw I am thankful for), is there anything more you wish to "complement" with?

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[firmek]

...If you went through a decent schooling system...

You're way out of your line imposing to someone that he is not educated...

[zerO_crash]

You're way out of your line imposing to someone that he is not educated...

 

I am not imposing anything. Read again what`s written there!

[NineLine]

Guys, please play nice, and please read the forum rules, if things continue to get personal, warnings will be handed out.

[Schmidtfire]

This discussion is quite entertaining and interesting, but history lessons, MiG-21bis documents, personal opionions about realism etc. won't help me to down a bomber with RS-2US in DCS. :joystick: Please read the thread topic and my first post. I am asking a simple question about the proper procedure for locking and launching RS-2US within DCS.

[zerO_crash]

This discussion is quite entertaining and interesting, but history lessons, MiG-21bis documents, personal opionions about realism etc. won't help me to down a bomber with RS-2US in DCS. :joystick: Please read the thread topic and my first post. I am asking a simple question about the proper procedure for locking and launching RS-2US within DCS.

 

Well simple really, you turn on your Master arm, set radar in beam mode, make sure you are within 2km behind the target (unless head on approach), hold your pipper on the target (that`s to say the radar beam), and fire away. You cannot lock the target, you have to manually point the beam at your opponent throughout the missile flight.

[Art-J]

Totally on a sidenote of this debate, the second pic posted by Firmek comes from Polish edition of a doc titled (translated more or less well) "An airplane MiG-21Bis (version 75A) - Technical Description of the Armament", 1982. So basically equivalent of "our" MiG, but with "Lazur" GCI command system instead of RSBN.

 

Anyway, one has to remember that the aforementioned missile was a late-'50s design, developed for interceptor variants of MiG-17 and -19. When -21Bis entered service in early to mid '70s, the RS-2-US was already phased out of first line units, the last examples being kept in service with the last Su-9s of "in-the-middle-of-nowhere" air defence units.

 

Realistic or not, it's one of those hopelessly ineffective, obscure weapon types in DCS You use only a couple of times just for laughs, not to touch them anymore ever again.

[zerO_crash]

Totally on a sidenote of this debate, the second pic posted by Firmek comes from Polish edition of a doc titled (translated more or less well) "An airplane MiG-21Bis (version 75A) - Technical Description of the Armament", 1982. So basically equivalent of "our" MiG, but with "Lazur" GCI command system instead of RSBN.

 

Anyway, one has to remember that the aforementioned missile was a late-'50s design, developed for interceptor variants of MiG-17 and -19. When -21Bis entered service in early to mid '70s, the RS-2-US was already phased out of first line units, the last examples being kept in service with the last Su-9s of "in-the-middle-of-nowhere" air defence units.

 

Realistic or not, it's one of those hopelessly ineffective, obscure weapon types in DCS You use only a couple of times just for laughs, not to touch them anymore ever again.

 

Precisely, that`s why it`s not possible to find any pics with that missile on any MiG-21 that`s even close generation-wise to our Bis :lol:

 

Still funny to have missions with them, having F-5 with Gar 8 vs Mig-21 with R-55 is kind of funny, for me at least (well and my clan mates) :)

 

Thx for the clarification regarding that pic btw

[Frederf]

Not all Bis used RP-22. I'm sure there are Bis aircraft with conical scan radar which can use the older missiles.

 

The Zvezda K55 was an IR missile only.

Officially but I hear there are some field modifications to put R-3R guidance package in place of IR guidance to convert K-55 into SARH.

[zerO_crash]

Not all Bis used RP-22. I'm sure there are Bis aircraft with conical scan radar which can use the older missiles.

 

 

Officially but I hear there are some field modifications to put R-3R guidance package in place of IR guidance to convert K-55 into SARH.

 

a) Yup, early Bis didn`t get RP-22M

 

b) Read about it too. Can confirm. I`ve yet to see how it looks with a radio homing head.

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[firmek]

I've found some quite interesting and complete read about the RS-1U, RS-2U, RS-2US, R-55 rockets from K-5 - K-55 family. As the article is quite long I've included the major points but if anyone is interested I can try to provide more information base on it or translate it.

 

RS-1U (K-5)

Short after the WW2 the Soviet Union started a research program with goal of developing rocket based anti-air defense system. The system was supposed to be composed from a ground air defense system organized into zones and a fighter jet armed with anti-air rockets.

The first research on the air-to-air rocket started in 1951 with a small "SzM" missile. In 1952 the program received an official confirmation securing founding and future orders. Also more detailed requirements were specified with goal of developing a missile capable of attacking bombers from their rear hemisphere. MiG-15P, MiG-17P and Yak-25 were selected initially as target platform. Eventually a decision was made that MiG-17P will be equipped with the missile.

First experimental versions of the new missile were ready at the end of 1952 while the first tests of the missiles but without the warhead and guidance system were performed in 1953. First complete test of the missile in simulated combat conditions took place in 1955. The missile was fired from MiG-17 (SP-6 prototype) while the target was an modified, remotely controlled Tu-4 bomber.

In 1956 the program resulted in the first air-to-air missile that entered the service in Soviet Union under military designation RS-1U.

Technical data:

- rocket engine: solid fuel based on powder, thrust 13,15 kN

- beam riding guidance system

- warhead: high explosive, fragmentation - 9,25 kg (radar proximity fuse)

- effective range 2-2,5 km

- minimum/maximum launch altitude: 5000/10000 m

The missile was in service with MiG-17PFU equipped with RP-1U guidance radar and according to some sources also with Yak-25K-5.

 

RS-2U (K-5M)

Originally developed with goal to be used by MiG-19PM. The requirements for the improved version of RS-1U were accepted in 1955 while the first tests were performed in 1956. During the program also a compressor anti-stall system that was later on used on MiG-19PM was researched. Apart of some changes in construction and materials used the missile received a new PRD-45 rocket engine, new radar proximity fuse capable of detecting targets from 15 meters distance and a new 13 kg warhead. The new rocket engine increased the missile range to 3,5 km and allowed the missile to be launched from lower altitudes.

Technical data:

- rocket engine: solid fuel, thrust 13,15 kN

- beam riding guidance system

- warhead: 13 kg (radar proximity fuse)

- effective range 1,95-3,5 km

- minimum/maximum launch altitude: 2500/16500 m

The missile was in service from 1957 and equipped by MiG-19PM and SM-12PM prototype.

 

RS-2US (K-5MS, K-51, IS)

The development of RS-2US initially started with a goal of creating a new K-6 missile that was supposed to be used with new T-43 prototype interceptor (later Su-9) equipped with Almaz radio station. Due to faced complexity and issues a decision was made to extend current K-5 line instead of developing a new K-6.

Modernized version of K-5 was equipped with new AR-45M2 proximity fuse characterized by higher temperature resistance - which was reqiured due to higher speeds achieved by Su-9. It also received an improved version of guidance radar beam receiver,

RS-2US missile entered the service in 1960 as a component of new Su-9-51 (T-3-51) system - Su-9 fighter jet and S-2-US weapons system. The further one was composed from the RS-2US missile and RP-9U (CD-30T or CD-30TP) radar.

In parallel of T-3-51 the work was carried out on SM-12-51 system. The program itself was canceled but as part of it a new CD-30T radar capable of guiding the RS-2US missile was researched. Later on in 1961 the first variant of MiG-21PF was equipped with the CD-30TP (RP-21M) radio station and RS-2US missile. In 1965 a serial production of next variant of Mig-21 - MiG-21PFM armed with K-51 system has been started.

Overall apart of Su-9 (and its prototypes), the RS-2US was equipped by SM-12PM and SM12MPU prototypes as also serial planes - MiG-19PM/PMU.

As for MiG-21 it was first used by PF variant which later together with PFS, PFM and R variants have received an upgraded RP-21M radio station. Later on an improved version of RP-21MA was delivered to MiG-21 M and MF variants.

Technical data:

- beam riding guidance system

- warhead: 13 kg (radar proximity fuse)

- effective range 1,95-5,2 km

- minimum/maximum launch altitude: 1000/16500 (20500 according to some sources) m

 

It's quite difficult to find evidence of RS-2US being used specifically by MiG-21bis but the system was exported to many countries where it stayed in service till 90's. (I've read somewhere that in Poland some of the missiles were modified and used as for target practice – carried out and launched from Su-22 - can't find the reference though).

Nevertheless I’m quite happy to have the RS-2US available in DCS for MiG-21bis, It’s quite an interesting system, shows how big advancement was done in the area of air-air missiles since the very first models. It’s also unique and fun and challenge when it comes for employment.

By the way, if anyone is interested I’ve stumbled up on an sale of an demilitarized version of RS-2US missile. Pretty much just a body but seems to be authentic :)

 

R-55, R-55M (K-55, izdielije 67)

.. maybe more details some other time. An attempt to address the guidance issues of K-51. Generally a missile build based on components from RS-2US but with totally a new front section with IR seeker. The missile was equipped with optical fuse. Serial production started in 1967 and was carried out till 1977 (R-55M was introduced during mid 70's)

[foxbat155]

Not all Bis used RP-22. I'm sure there are Bis aircraft with conical scan radar which can use the older missiles.

 

a) Yup, early Bis didn`t get RP-22M

 

 

ALL Bis had RP-22, this system is in use from 1966, only question is which variant: older RP-22S ( with R-3S/R-3R/R-55 ) or newer RP-22SM ( with additional missiles R-13M/R-60 ). Some countries outside WP get simplified aircrafts without newer missiles, even WP countries didn't used R-13 and R-60 before 1982, NO one outside Soviet Union got R-55.

Don't exist ANY evidence for Bis with RP-21 and RS-2US, russian sources deny this revelations. Exist photo from 90's of polish MiG-21Bis with RS-2US from some airshow, tech crew suspended those missiles for fun. Some people just still mistaken Mig-21M/MF with Bis that's all.

 

field modifications

 

Gentlemen please be serious..............................:lol:

[pepin1234]

Who care about make a Beam mode for A-A in RP-22M? Is quite difficult see M and MF versions in DCS so why not make the real beam mode of RP-21 radar for Bis version?

[zerO_crash]

ALL Bis had RP-22, this system is in use from 1966, only question is which variant: older RP-22S ( with R-3S/R-3R/R-55 ) or newer RP-22SM ( with additional missiles R-13M/R-60 ). Some countries outside WP get simplified aircrafts without newer missiles, even WP countries didn't used R-13 and R-60 before 1982, NO one outside Soviet Union got R-55.

Don't exist ANY evidence for Bis with RP-21 and RS-2US, russian sources deny this revelations. Exist photo from 90's of polish MiG-21Bis with RS-2US from some airshow, tech crew suspended those missiles for fun. Some people just still mistaken Mig-21M/MF with Bis that's all.

 

 

 

Gentlemen please be serious..............................:lol:

 

No problem with field mods. There are some sources claiming that there was a R-55 radar homing seeker version. Now these are mostly western, this I wouldn`t stake my life on it. Won`t argue for nor against it, as it`s as likely they existed. Again, consider how much older military hardware was updated with the use of field equipment to apply for later/different use. That said, until hard evidence is found, I will pretend it never existed.

[Nerd1000]

No problem with field mods. There are some sources claiming that there was a R-55 radar homing seeker version. Now these are mostly western, this I wouldn`t stake my life on it. Won`t argue for nor against it, as it`s as likely they existed. Again, consider how much older military hardware was updated with the use of field equipment to apply for later/different use. That said, until hard evidence is found, I will pretend it never existed.

It is certainly plausible given that the R-55 and R-3S use the same seeker- swapping to the R-3R seeker might well have been as simple as crimping a few wires together.

[foxbat155]

There are some sources claiming that there was a R-55 radar homing seeker version.

 

Yes it's true this variant existed, and his name is RS-2US. Only the sequence was reversed, first radar variant then IR. R-55 was created mainly for Su-9 as his armament supplement, with minimum changes ( both missile and aircraft ), no need for new SARH variant because of Su-9 role ( bomber interceptor ).

 

It is certainly plausible given that the R-55 and R-3S use the same seeker- swapping to the R-3R seeker might well have been as simple as crimping a few wires together.

 

No problem with field mods.

 

R-55 seeker is not the same like those from R-3S, it's based on, but it's not interchangeable. How look cramping a few wires together?- in this case this took almost 6 year of developing ( must be simple isn't it? ). Not possible just put seeker and connect wires.

 

Is quite difficult see M and MF versions in DCS so why not make the real beam mode of RP-21 radar for Bis version?

 

That brilliant idea, developers added this option for fun and why not do this according to reality. Important is that we don't have problem with RP-21 documentation, opposite to RP-22. It's easier to implement than many think, most is already done. Changes just will need made in missiles, both need target lock on, just R-3R uses energy reflected from target, RS-2US fly inside lock on beam that's all.

[Frederf]

The RS-2US is not a radar homer but a radar beam rider. Changing the RP-22 for an RP-21 is a terrible idea.

[foxbat155]

Nobody talking about changing radars. We have RS-2US in game ( as kind of additional fun like H-66 and both missiles already are no in line with reality ) so why do not implement her like was in real aircraft because present implementation is not realistic. Personally I do not use RS or H-66, but this can be done for people who wanna have something from older MiG-21 variants. Not bad idea in my opinion.

[pepin1234]

The RS-2US is not a radar homer but a radar beam rider. Changing the RP-22 for an RP-21 is a terrible idea.

 

The implementation of the beam mode to guide RS-2US missile with RP-22 radar have nothing to do with change the whole RP-22. The Mig-21 have many version and is impossible simulate this fighter with more than 30 years with success service. The suggestion is make a beam A-A mode for the Bis version and use the armament limitation in editor to make earlier Mig-21 conflicts.

Edited August 14, 2016 by pepin1234

[Nerd1000]

 

R-55 seeker is not the same like those from R-3S, it's based on, but it's not interchangeable. How look cramping a few wires together?- in this case this took almost 6 year of developing ( must be simple isn't it? ). Not possible just put seeker and connect wires.

 

Fair point- I was under the impression that the seekers were truly modular and interchangeable. Obviously that was not the case.