beryoza question

[Frostie]

:) Well.... again, what's the point of translating Beriosa signal strengths into ranges for various aircraft? According to your scenario, you'll know the range once you have it on radar. And until you have it on radar you don't know know whether the Beriosa is indicating a fighter with a strong radar that's far away or a weak one that's close by. So any translation is useless.

 

And, if you should have foreknowledge that the threat in question is an AMRAAM toting F-15, what difference does knowing the distance make? If you're both at high altitude, for instance, you can have an AMRAAM coming in your direction when the signal strength reaches the 10 or 11o'clock position depending on the situation. Knowing the range the signal strength indicates makes no difference.

 

As far as notching is concerned what, other than bearing, can you glean from the Beriosa that would help?

 

We are making the Beriosa's interpretation much more complex than it needs to be. It's not a one-stop-shop instrument but it seems, sometimes, we're trying to pretend it is. It needs to be used in conjunction with active sensors to achieve maximum benefit. Either that or AWACS/EWR.

You should be scanning the skies in unfriendly territory so any aircraft with weak radars you should have on scope first.

If I have no signal followed by a weak signal during having a contact on radar I can start to expect a weak aircraft eg. MiG21.

 

If a bandit is on my radar at 100km a signal strength at 2 o'clock can be classed as a MiG29 and I can expect R77, ET etc. If the 100km contact comes in at 12 o'clock strength then I can guess on Flanker or F15 mostly dependent on whether he locks me or not, if he hasn't locked me by 8 o'clock I can pretty much assume actives and F15. I don't understand what you see as so complex in this.

 

With regards to notching and everything else, i'm sure you understand aspect effects the range at which you are picked up on radar. If you are not being picked up it is possible to navigate around a poor scanning pattern and turn hot when you are no longer tracked, you have bearing, approximate range and equipped with the best stealth tool in DCS the EOS. I'd rather surprise an F15 than try and duke it out against amraams because if they ever make them more realistic you won't be dodging them for love or money.

 

The Beroyza is useful in many ways and many approaches.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Frostie

[fitness88]

If you didn't know a bee from an eagle, the bee at 6 feet away could appear further than the eagle at 60 feet, once you figure it out which would demand your attention first?

 

Good reading you both provided which I shall give more thought to...thanks.

[DarkFire]

EDIT: Just want to add, upon rereading your post, there is a big enough difference. Just look at the images Frostie posted. But given two aircraft in search mode, the Beriosa is going to give primary ranking to the stronger signal. Keep in mind that aircraft with very strong radars can carry weapons with a very long reach. Otherwise there's no reason for the extra weight and cost.

 

This is an excellent point. It's been my experience (sometimes at great cost in parachute rides) that the SPO-15 prioritizes threats for good reason, whatever type has been prioritized.

[fitness88]

This is an excellent point. It's been my experience (sometimes at great cost in parachute rides) that the SPO-15 prioritizes threats for good reason, whatever type has been prioritized.

 

Yes the Beryoza knows something we don't.

[fitness88]

Ironhand, read it over and I think I get what you're saying. Regarding air to air missile threats, they can be launched from varying distances depending on the weapon. The RWR monitors when they actually become a threat to you and notifies you accordingly. So it's the threat level logic, not the distance that is being determined by the Beryosa.

 

To my original point, converting RWR light strip back to distance allows you to know when you might be in a knife fight.

Edited November 29, 2016 by fitness88

[Ironhand]

You should be scanning the skies in unfriendly territory so any aircraft with weak radars you should have on scope first.

If I have no signal followed by a weak signal during having a contact on radar I can start to expect a weak aircraft eg. MiG21.

 

If a bandit is on my radar at 100km a signal strength at 2 o'clock can be classed as a MiG29 and I can expect R77, ET etc. If the 100km contact comes in at 12 o'clock strength then I can guess on Flanker or F15 mostly dependent on whether he locks me or not, if he hasn't locked me by 8 o'clock I can pretty much assume actives and F15. I don't understand what you see as so complex in this.

 

With regards to notching and everything else, i'm sure you understand aspect effects the range at which you are picked up on radar. If you are not being picked up it is possible to navigate around a poor scanning pattern and turn hot when you are no longer tracked, you have bearing, approximate range and equipped with the best stealth tool in DCS the EOS. I'd rather surprise an F15 than try and duke it out against amraams because if they ever make them more realistic you won't be dodging them for love or money.

 

The Beroyza is useful in many ways and many approaches.

Frostie, I have no problem with what you are saying and, in fact, it's how people should fly. My point, however, is that to "translate" signal strength into range numbers for the Beriosa serves no useful purpose. It's an extra step that appears to give you additional knowledge when, in fact, it does not. You already know what the probable situation is based on what you see on radar (or a range number from AWACS/EWR, etc) and the signal strength alone.

 

...

 

To my original point, converting RWR light strip back to distance allows you to know when you might be in a knife fight.

If you mean by "knife fight" a BVR duel that's become WVR, you already know that without any translation. By the time the light path travels to within 1 or 2 notches of the "own aircraft" inverted triangle, you're likely to be in a knife fight...assuming you are both still alive.

 

The matter is actually a bit simpler and more complex, since we seem to have a simplified version of the Beriosa in the sim. The real world version, I believe, actually distinuishes various types of radar "groups" and, so, the symbology (П, З, X, Н, Г, C) actually reflects something different than what it does in the sim. Some of those symbols can indicate both a type of aircraft radar and certain SAM types. Which is indicated depends on the threat environment.

[fitness88]

Frostie, I have no problem with what you are saying and, in fact, it's how people should fly. My point, however, is that to "translate" signal strength into range numbers for the Beriosa serves no useful purpose. It's an extra step that appears to give you additional knowledge when, in fact, it does not. You already know what the probable situation is based on what you see on radar (or a range number from AWACS/EWR, etc) and the signal strength alone.

 

 

If you mean by "knife fight" a BVR duel that's become WVR, you already know that without any translation. By the time the light path travels to within 1 or 2 notches of the "own aircraft" inverted triangle, you're likely to be in a knife fight...assuming you are both still alive.

 

The matter is actually a bit simpler and more complex, since we seem to have a simplified version of the Beriosa in the sim. The real world version, I believe, actually distinuishes various types of radar "groups" and, so, the symbology (П, З, X, Н, Г, C) actually reflects something different than what it does in the sim. Some of those symbols can indicate both a type of aircraft radar and certain SAM types. Which is indicated depends on the threat environment.

 

 

At 1 notch you could have visual on 1 plane while being 10nm from another at the same 1 notch.

[probad]

yes its possible, so do you want an internet cookie or something since you seem very fixated on making this statement which really only serves the purpose of confusing your own decisionmaking process?

like in the f15 you can have a mig-21 right in front of you and it will display further off in the rwr threat circle than a su-27 at 25nm. okay it happens, big deal, acknowledging this phenomenon only muddles the water and doesnt bring you closer to winning a fight.

 

what brings you closer to winning the fight is knowing that in dcs, mig-21s are few and far in between when su-27s and f-15s are in play, which have more comparable radar strengths and thus making spo-15 readings more reliable.

 

if you're blind and you don't know what is out there lighting up your rwr (you already made a mistake here) then you will have to make do with a (god forbid) best guess.

[Ironhand]

At 1 notch you could have visual on 1 plane while being 10nm from another at the same 1 notch.

:) There is that.

[fitness88]

:) There is that.

 

It was more for my own understanding of the function than to actually use it...thanks again for the feedback.

[JunMcKill]

In fact the Russian RWR SPO-15 in DCS is simplified, the real, use one or a combination of lights, read below:

 

DCS RWR

Threats types:

П – airborne radar

З - long-range radar

X - medium-range radar

H - short-range radar

F - early warning radar

C - AWACS

 

but in the SU-27SK manual, is more complex, and it's not that simple to delimit the air and ground targets:

 

SPO-15LM

 

П – irradiation from SAMs "Terrier" or aircraft type F-4, F-104 with simultaneous inclusion of spike for aiming "Sparrow" missile

З – irradiation type SAM "Chaparral", "Vulcan" or naval SAM "Sea Wolf"

X – irradiation of SAMs like "Hawk" or aircraft type F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 (long-range)

Н – irradiation SAM type "Nike Hercules," "Patriot," or naval "Talos";

Г – exposure to short distance of the aircraft F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 or missile "Phoenix" in ARH (possibly flashing signals Г together with the X)

С – irradiation aircraft type F-4, F-5, F-104, F-111 (without including the illumination channel П), Mirage, Jaguar, nails of SAM type "Terrier", "Crotale"

 

Original:

 

П – облучение ЗРК «Терьер» или самолетами типа F-4, F-104 с одновременным включением подсвета для наведения ракет типа «Спарроу»;

З – облучение ЗРК типа «Чапарел», «Вулкан» или ЗРК «Сивульф»;

X – облучение ЗРК типа «Хок» или самолетами F-14, F-15, F-16 и F-18 (с больших дальностей);

Н – облучение ЗРК типа «Найк-Геркулес», «Патриот», «Талос»;

Г – облучение с малых дальностей самолета F-14, F-15, F-16 и F-18 или ракетой «Феникс» с РТС (возможно высвечивание сигнала Г совместно с сигналом X);

С – облучение самолетами типа F-4, F-5, F-104, F-111 (без включения канала подсвета), МИРАЖ, ЯГУАР, ЛАЙТНИНГ или ЗРК типа "Терьер", "Кроталь",

 

 

In this case the FC3 SPO RWR were designed to give a more easy way to deal with it

Edited December 2, 2016 by JunMcKill

[fitness88]

Thanks for the additional info...would be nice to have some of the real world functionality.