AIM120"C" and AIM9"M" TEST TEAM READ!

[D-Scythe]

The number 3000 was rather the total for Iraq gulf war.

Anyway I guess close to 800 allied fighters for the Yugo-war (230 fighter planes for the US alone)

BTW, 35000 sorties were done.

 

HAHA, you're kidding right? There were only at MOST 48 AMRAAM-capable aircraft in the first Gulf war. Those would be the F-15Cs belonging to the 33rd FW.

 

Anyway in that situation of the event we got 4 F-16’s vs 1 blind Mig-29A (1 AWACS with direct contact with 4 Dutch F-16's; read 24 x AIM-120C vs. nothing that came close)

 

AIM-120Cs? You really really enjoy your fantasies don't you? The reality is that ONE Dutch AIM-120B (the AIM-120C was never bought by the Dutch) was shot at 11 miles which destroyed the MiG.

 

You never read what he said.

 

TacksonSonny said that “(a couple of blind mig-29’s against 3000+ amraam capable opponents).” The key word is CAPABLE. Not that 3000 + AMRAAM’s were in the air.

 

Yes, I didn't miss that part. Unfortunately for you, the REALITY is that only about 400 NATO aircraft CAPABLE of firing AMRAAMs participated in Allied Force.

 

You are stating the obvious, you are not making the point. Why did NATO need ten F-15’s for every technologically inferior MiG-29A?

 

There were roughly just as many F-15Cs participating in Allied Force as there were MiG-29As in the Serbian air force. The 493rd FS deployed 12-14 F-15Cs to Aviano, then redeployed to Cervia, in Italy, for Allied Force. Six Alaskan F-15Cs also deployed to Italy towards the end of military operations over Serbia.

 

Of course, 1 to 1 in your land of make-belief somehow equals 10 to 1.

[D-Scythe]

The Yugo dudes trying to bring out some facts, with some nags.

 

What facts? All I see is BS. And no, I'm not talking about Black Shark.

[TucksonSonny]

What facts? All I see is BS. And no, I'm not talking about Black Shark.

 

About the 120C, Ok, little mistake there (it was a long time ago)

 

Ok, that was AIM-120B and 3 Dutch F-16A’s (lockon did confuse me with the C version).

11 miles Ok, which is very very in visual range (read AA-11(R-73) Archer range)

Not 15 but 11 miles: must be the 2 seconds delay problem. (Looks like the 120C in lomac is a little bit over modeled :music_whistling:)

 

My point is still there (nothing came close)

 

It is anyway funny 35219 NATO sorties flown versus what? 5 or 6 Mig-29A sorties?

 

BTW, I am not a Yugo-dude: my country (Belgium) did contribute with 14 F-16’s. :music_whistling:

Netherlands (20 F-16A’s)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What facts? All I see is BS. And no, I'm not talking about Black Shark.

Than, it is your perception.

 

I’ve never said Yugoslavian (nowadays Serbian) armed forces were stronger then NATO (read USA). I’ve never said F-15 is weaker then MiG-29A. And so on.

 

I will now state (to clear this issue once for ever) that I do sincerely love the country where I currently reside, and that is United States of America. I say that US armed forces pilots are brave man and women. I say that F-22 raptor is technological marvel. I say AIM-120 is an excellent missile. And so on.

 

I also say that NATO (read USA) brought 10 times as many airplanes as Yugoslavians (nowadays Serbians) had. With over 22 000 sorties (not all of them AG) there was only 17 confirmed hits on armored vehicles (tanks, apc …) and artillery units. NATO flew CAS missions. AH-64 did not fly a single combat mission, could not do what it was designed for. Also, A-10 could not do and did not do the job it was designed to do.

[GGTharos]

And how does that take away from a MIG-29A not having much of a chance against an F-15C BVR?

[D-Scythe]

Than, it is your perception.

 

I’ve never said Yugoslavian (nowadays Serbian) armed forces were stronger then NATO (read USA). I’ve never said F-15 is weaker then MiG-29A. And so on.

 

I will now state (to clear this issue once for ever) that I do sincerely love the country where I currently reside, and that is United States of America. I say that US armed forces pilots are brave man and women. I say that F-22 raptor is technological marvel. I say AIM-120 is an excellent missile. And so on.

 

My perception is that some of your *facts* regarding the AIR-to-AIR engagements in Allied Force should *not* be called facts. At best, they are unconfirmed, unsubstantiated, facts - they have absolutely no proof whatsover. Until someone comes up with proof that "USAF pilots needed to spam AMRAAMs" that did NOT come from some nut-job playing make-belief on some internet forum, some of the statements from your party are completely questionable.

 

If you really wanted to find out if USAF pilots needed to spam AMRAAMs, I suggest you contact a Capt. Mike Showers, of the 493rd FS (as of 1999). He was F-15C pilot who had to shoot 3 AMRAAMs to bring down a Serb Fulcrum - and that is the highest RECORDED number of AMRAAMs needed to bring down a target in Allied Force.

 

About the only thing that is right is that NATO had a much larger air force in Allied Force than the Serbs did.

 

I also say that NATO (read USA) brought 10 times as many airplanes as Yugoslavians (nowadays Serbians) had. With over 22 000 sorties (not all of them AG) there was only 17 confirmed hits on armored vehicles (tanks, apc …) and artillery units. NATO flew CAS missions. AH-64 did not fly a single combat mission, could not do what it was designed for. Also, A-10 could not do and did not do the job it was designed to do.

 

And the AH-64 and the A-10 factor into the AIR-to-AIR equation just how, exactly?

[Kenan]

<COMERCIAL BREAK START>

 

History is again, repeating itself.

Like with the operation Allied Force, we have on this forum lots of dangerous Yanks & their dutch allies fiercly using modern intelectual AR homing posts against a sole serbian warrior, Hajduk Veljko, who bravely took off, armed with an outdated semi-active efficient posts with facts in a bad condition and hardly maintained.

 

He is about to get shot down, but the tale of his brave stand against an army of capitalist money grabbing Yanks & the stoned dutch allies, will never be forgotten and will be retold in the small Iraqi border villages where the resistance will live on..live on...

 

<COMERCIAL BREAK END>

[TucksonSonny]

 

He is about to get shot down, but the tale of his brave stand against an army of capitalist money grabbing Yanks & the stoned dutch allies,

 

So we are talking here about the first aim-120B kill in RL by a stoned Dutch.

(BTW, in Belgium the majority speaks dutch but is not Dutch or smokes)

Anyway D-Scythe is Canadian and will be offended if you call him a Yank :D

[Kula66]

You're kidding, right? It's called ADRENALINE.

 

Every account I've read of A2A mentions this delay ... pilots thinking that something has gone wrong, when its just the body slowing down perception of time.

 

Apparently (according to something I read ages ago here) the fire control systems in the 29/27 DO have a long delay between lockup and ready to fire and before the actual launch that isn't modelled in LO ... so, if anything is going to get a delay, is the Russian birds!

[D-Scythe]

So we are talking here about the first aim-120B kill in RL by a stoned Dutch.

(BTW, in Belgium the majority speaks dutch but is not Dutch or smokes)

Anyway D-Scythe is Canadian and will be offended if you call him a Yank :D

 

Yes, C-A-N-A-D-I-A-N. The country to the north of the U.S. that can actually run a fair election ;)

[Frostie]

They have the 7's incase any migs decide to head straight towards them spewwing chaff.:)

[tflash]

Although I sympathize with =4c= Hajduk Veljko's bravery, we should be confortable with the fact that AIM-120B was performing very, very well in the Yugo war. Indeed, the Mig-29A was no match and would not even have been in a strict 1-to-1 scenario.

 

The Serbs where doomed anyway for a simple reason: no resupplies. When you have only a handfull of jets and no resupply capability you in fact have nothing. Suppose the Mig-29A where in optimal condition, flown by aces and technically a match for the Nato hordes, even then they where doomed. The conflict would have lasted only a day or two longer.

 

If you do not have strategic depth, which in this case would have been Russia getting actively involved and providing rearward sanctuariess and constant resupplies, you're dead. Nato had a whole continent to fall back on.

If, on the other hand, you DO have such a backyard, like Hezbollah/Iran has shown recently and the Vietnamese/Chinese showed earlier on, you can make life very miserable for your opponent.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

And how does that take away from a MIG-29A not having much of a chance against an F-15C BVR?

It does not! You, again is just stating the obvious. The question is why did NATO bring 10 F-15’s for every MiG-29A in the theater? NATO knew where the MiG-29A’s were, NATO could see them taking off and landing, NATO had overwhelming technology advantage (software and hardware), NATO knew every cave where hardware was stored at. So why 10 F-15’s for every MiG-29A’s?

[nscode]

Yes, C-A-N-A-D-I-A-N. The country to the north of the U.S. that can actually run a fair election ;)

 

ough... the country north of the country where most people think Canada is in Florida :D

[GGTharos]

Every account I've read of A2A mentions this delay ... pilots thinking that something has gone wrong, when its just the body slowing down perception of time.

 

Apparently (according to something I read ages ago here) the fire control systems in the 29/27 DO have a long delay between lockup and ready to fire and before the actual launch that isn't modelled in LO ... so, if anything is going to get a delay, is the Russian birds!

 

All missiles have a data download delay, and who knows what else. This is not modelled in LOMAC, but you will see it for the Ka-50's armament.

 

The radar lock on delay is a separate issue altogether and, again, it is not modelled.

[GGTharos]

It does not! You, again is just stating the obvious. The question is why did NATO bring 10 F-15’s for every MiG-29A in the theater? NATO knew where the MiG-29A’s were, NATO could see them taking off and landing, NATO had overwhelming technology advantage (software and hardware), NATO knew every cave where hardware was stored at. So why 10 F-15’s for every MiG-29A’s?

 

 

Because you need x fighters to effectively cover y volume, and you have to account for sortie rotation etc.

 

Aside from that: Because they could.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The Serbs where doomed anyway for a simple reason: no resupplies.

I agree with that. And not only in A-A scenario, ground war would be disastrous for Yugoslavia as well.

 

However, the way NATO applied the military force is by definition a *a** ***n***** ******m. I can not say these words here because they can be interpreted as political statement.

 

And NATO countries politicians were aware of that. That’s why the military intervention could not last long and Bill Clinton had to sign a peace treaty.

 

Even worst for Bill Clinton and his Balkan adventure is the fact that time has been working for citizens of Serbia, big time in the last three-four years.

[TucksonSonny]

They have the 7's incase any migs decide to head straight towards them spewwing chaff.:)

 

Or because they have a large stock of AIM-7.;)

[D-Scythe]

It does not! You, again is just stating the obvious. The question is why did NATO bring 10 F-15’s for every MiG-29A in the theater? NATO knew where the MiG-29A’s were, NATO could see them taking off and landing, NATO had overwhelming technology advantage (software and hardware), NATO knew every cave where hardware was stored at. So why 10 F-15’s for every MiG-29A’s?

 

Where do you keep getting the idea that there are 10 F-15Cs to 1 MiG-29A? I already PROVED this wrong.

 

"There were roughly just as many F-15Cs participating in Allied Force as there were MiG-29As in the Serbian air force. The 493rd FS deployed 12-14 F-15Cs to Aviano, then redeployed to Cervia, in Italy, for Allied Force. Six Alaskan F-15Cs also deployed to Italy towards the end of military operations over Serbia."

 

If you know anything about F-15C squadrons at all, you would know that the ONLY squadron to deploy to Cervia AFB in Italy for the ENTIRE war was the 493rd FS, the "Grim Reapers," part of the 48th FW, stationed at Lakenheath, England.

[TucksonSonny]

Where do you keep getting the idea that there are 10 F-15Cs to 1 MiG-29A? I already PROVED this wrong.

 

"There were roughly just as many F-15Cs participating in Allied Force as there were MiG-29As in the Serbian air force. The 493rd FS deployed 12-14 F-15Cs to Aviano, then redeployed to Cervia, in Italy, for Allied Force. Six Alaskan F-15Cs also deployed to Italy towards the end of military operations over Serbia."

 

If you know anything about F-15C squadrons at all, you would know that the ONLY squadron to deploy to Cervia AFB in Italy for the ENTIRE war was the 493rd FS, the "Grim Reapers," part of the 48th FW, stationed at Lakenheath, England.

 

On day 44 (Thursday, May 6, 1999) US officials ordered 176 more US Air Force and US Marines planes to the Balkan region, bringing the number of US planes in the campaign to more than 800. The planes included 18 A-10s, 18 F-16CJs, 36 F-15Es, 24 F/A-18s and up to 80 additional tanker planes.

 

800 was the number of US planes only.

 

BTW, not included the USS Theodore Roosevelt with his F/A-18 Hornet squadrons (CVN 71)

28 F-14A Tomcat

24 F/A-18C Hornet

4 EA-6B Prowler

8 S-3B Viking

5 E-2C Hawkeye

2 C-2A Greyhound Transport

[D-Scythe]

On day 44 (Thursday, May 6, 1999) US officials ordered 176 more US Air Force and US Marines planes to the Balkan region, bringing the number of US planes in the campaign to more than 800. The planes included 18 A-10s, 18 F-16CJs, 36 F-15Es, 24 F/A-18s and up to 80 additional tanker planes.

800 was the number of US planes only.

 

Unless any of the names bolded above is a secret designation for F-15C, again, where on earth does anyone get the 10 F-15C to 1 MIG-29A ratio?

 

I'll take F-15C, F-15 Charlie, light greys, hell, I'll even take "Eagle." But no where above do I see ANY of these possible names. F-15E comes close - really, it's just off by one letter - but sorry, don't think that's a typo.

 

Facts people, facts.

[pschelchshorn]

"JERRY JERRY JERRY!!!!" lol

 

Whats the problem with NATO having sent alot of Aircraft to the Theatre? They just wanted to have make sure there are enough assets so everyone is "safe" ...I dunno..this thread contains alot of b to tha S

 

 

Flip

[nscode]

Unless any of the names bolded above is a secret designation for F-15C, again, where on earth does anyone get the 10 F-15C to 1 MIG-29A ratio?

 

I'll take F-15C, F-15 Charlie, light greys, hell, I'll even take "Eagle." But no where above do I see ANY of these possible names. F-15E comes close - really, it's just off by one letter - but sorry, don't think that's a typo.

 

Facts people, facts.

 

 

 

actually, there were no f-15's here at all. or any other planes. it was all done by a single f-22

[GGTharos]

On day 44 (Thursday, May 6, 1999) US officials ordered 176 more US Air Force and US Marines planes to the Balkan region, bringing the number of US planes in the campaign to more than 800. The planes included 18 A-10s, 18 F-16CJs, 36 F-15Es, 24 F/A-18s and up to 80 additional tanker planes.

 

800 was the number of US planes only.

 

BTW, not included the USS Theodore Roosevelt with his F/A-18 Hornet squadrons (CVN 71)

 

Where are the F-15C's mentioned? F-15E's don't do air to air unless they absolutely -must-.

 

Aircraft carrying AG ordnance can do some self-escort, but they will avoid fighters rather than engage them - the heavy weapons and fuel loads limit the fighter's maneuverability and its BVR, not to mention WVR capability. A single air to air can burn all the fuel you had for ingress and cause you to abort. Unless you're playing LOMAC of course, where you can haul AG loads at supersonic speeds in your migs and Su's and have no adverse effect :D

[D-Scythe]

Where are the F-15C's mentioned? F-15E's don't do air to air unless they absolutely -must-.

 

Actually, you'd be surprised. A lot of times, over Iraq and Serbia, a couple F-15Es will carry a mixed load of 6 AAMs and 2 GBU-12Bs (maybe even a JDAM or GBU-24 on the centreline) and be tasked with sorta a "multi"-CAP, to be available for air-to-air or air-to-ground taskings as required.

 

Of course, if there are F-15Cs around, those are obviously going to get the A/A taskings first. But Mudhens have flown pure, defensive BARCAP missions as well - but no OCA MiG sweeps or anything.