China get Su-33!

[TucksonSonny]

You are wrong. There isnt, nor there will be any kind of formal alliance between any of these 3 countries, even when china's and URRS were both communist. Much the same way North Korea broke the pipe of friedship with USSR, but that was a more radical depart.

China has swong its preferrence between US and russia over the years even during the cold war. The russians do not trust the chinese fully due to historical reasons but also politicaly culturaly and geographicaly.

 

They keep selling them weapons because thats one of the major russians export income, but note that they dont give away the same goodies the Indians have.

 

 

Check the votes made in the UN ;) .

[Shaman]

Wrong. China is untouchable since they are like 1/5th of Earth's population; and they've been ruling their lands since like ekhm dragons, dinos and such were living. We pretty much were hanging on trees or hiding in caves when China began journey through their history path towards world domination.

:D

[3Sqn_Fudd]

The Chinese got money but not a whole lotta brains.

 

So let them build carriers and buy Su-33s...make them spend their money and have the Americans drop a nuke on them when the right moment strikes...

 

Im not worried :)

 

Yeh..... I think Alex was making a quick jab at a more complex answer. What I think he should of been speaking to more was about deterrence. i.e. It's not just Taiwan vs China.

 

I for one would urge people not to make a huge deal about any arms deal or developement below the ability to stop all nuclear weapons delivery sytems.

 

For anyone interested in deterrence read the book "Arms and Influence" by Tomas Schelling...it's really good, if controversial... his career in this study started when him and some people he was traveling with got seperated. They met up again, but they wondered what decisions would two non-speaking actors make if they wanted to meet in a certain location.

[TucksonSonny]

Wrong. China is untouchable since they are like 1/5th of Earth's population; and they've been ruling their lands since like ekhm dragons, dinos and such were living. We pretty much were hanging on trees or hiding in caves when China began journey through their history path towards world domination.

:D

 

China rules the Belgium soccer competition, that is for sure.:D

About the Su-33 subject again!

I don’t think that China has a suitable carrier that is ready for any su-33, right?

[HRZ]

Cmon, let's be realistic here.

 

If chinese president just ordered one of the Beijing city block's invade any country, we would have like, couple of millions of people, doing an invasion.

 

They don't really need AK-47's, all you have to do is give each of them a peace of rock and that's it. You're screwed.

[TucksonSonny]

I think we can be pretty sure that if China indeed does purchase Su-33s, they will be multirole jets and not of the same configuration as those currently operated by Russia.

 

Moreover, the question is whether they will even have similar airframes. A new multirole version of the Su-33 already exists in prototype form - namely the two-seat Su-27KUB, which has similar radar/weapons system to that of the MiG-29K(9-41 purchased by India), but also quite a few new airframe features.

 

My guess is that a new-built export Su-33 for China would look more like a single seat version of the Su-27KUB than the current Su-33 version operated by Russia.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

It will not be a lomac su-33 but one loaded with R-77 anyway. :D

[Pilotasso]

Cmon, let's be realistic here.

 

If chinese president just ordered one of the Beijing city block's invade any country, we would have like, couple of millions of people, doing an invasion.

 

They don't really need AK-47's, all you have to do is give each of them a peace of rock and that's it. You're screwed.

 

It actualy has been donne before, not with rocks but machine guns and rifles. It raised ALOT of eyebrows when it hapened, but ended up with china losing lots of their soldiers and had to consider themselves happy with a cease fire treaty without total hummiliation.

 

Tactics in the end made up for shear numerical disavantage.

 

China has always been a civilazation of monumental magnitude in several aspects but has been historicaly cursed with clay feet.

[Alfa]

Not correct. Similar Russian system (like Su-30MKK, MKK2 made by holding Sukhoi)

 

http://www.rosprom.gov.ru/en/news.php?id=291

 

You are wrong Kusch :) .

 

As the link you provided yourself above says, the Su-27KUB is equipped with the Zhuk-MS radar made by Phazatron-NIIR - which is the same radar as the Zhuk-M equipping the MiG-29K.....only difference is the size of the antenna(624mm for the Zhuk-M and 960mm for the Zhuk-MS).

 

The Su-30MKK is equipped with the N001VE(upgraded version of the N001) made by Tikhomirov-NIIP :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Ukr_Alex]

Dumb post, and needless too. :disgust:

 

Awww what happend? Did I push a button of yours? :music_whistling:

[Pilotasso]

no, its was just plain dumb and out of place, doesnt take a rocket scientist to arrive at this conclusion. Im not chinese so...

 

Im sorry to be this harsh but your suggestions of genocide were too.

[Ukr_Alex]

Not only is China a nation that has nuclear power, it is together with Russia and the US a nation who actually have got humans in space.

 

BTW, China is an untouchable nation because it simply is an allied nation with Russia like the same way Europe is an (untouchable) allied nation of the US.

 

 

Ally like Russia?

 

Please mate, dont start.

 

What is Russia capable of in the grand scheme of things? Not much.

 

So they got nukes...big deal.

 

They cant see 70% of the nukes heading their way.

 

 

How long have they been fighting in Chechnya? Now look at Chechnya and the all mighty Russian Federation...

 

 

See the world how it is. NATO owns, US owns nato. Thats the bottom line.

 

Russia is no longer a factor. THeir avaition? Pilots flying few hours a year, and jets crashing all the time...

 

 

One more example of nation having the money to be a power, but a country which simply has a corrupt government in place that doesnt care about the hard working people and only cares about pocketing the money.

[Alfa]

Awww what happend? Did I push a button of yours? :music_whistling:

 

You pushed mine.

 

- JJ.

[Ukr_Alex]

no, its was just plain dumb, doesnt take a rocket scientist to arrive at this conclusion. Im not chinese so...

 

 

Please explain then.

 

 

You think China is this big superpower? That seems to be what 99% of the general population on the street thinks...and its just plain borring.

 

Americans have the world in check. Personaly I am not worried at some big future Chinese domination. It just aint gonna happen.

[Pilotasso]

 

Check the votes made in the UN ;) .

 

 

Well...Im infromed, while china voted against US military interventions in the past lets not forget that they not always do as the case of North Korea. After all china is implementing the sactions even though it shares much of the fault of the current situation in the peninsula (so does even South korea, your surprised?).

[Ukr_Alex]

like that's not going to cause a flame war...:thumbdown: btw I'm chinese, looks like you are the one that lacks a whole lotta brains. Think before you say something on a public forum.

 

 

LMAO

 

Do you even know what I mean by "whole lotta brains" ?

 

I guess not. Are the chinese smart people? Most definetly. One of the greatest, well the greatest early civilization. Period.

 

What I mean is that I dont see getting an old ukrainian carrier, and getting some Su-33s as a smart move from their side. Nothing more then as someone mentioned "showing off".

 

 

What is this move going to do for them?

 

If I was China, with all the money that they got. Id develop my own carriers, something new, not an old rusted, "refurbed" platfrom of the Vayrag, and some Su-33s.

 

Develop your own infrasctructure. You have the money, and you have the people. I studied with many Chinese, and they definetly got the brains for calculus.

 

This whole sudden navy build up seems like nothing more then a quick way to show that "we are big"...as I dont see how it has a great impact on the coutries military.

 

They are relying on getting foregin technology when they have the PEOPLE and the MONEY do develop their own.

 

If you think thats great thinking, and not dumb from their side then please argue so. I would like to hear it.

 

However please dont come on saying I insulted the Chinese nation by saying that they are not displaying a whole lotta brains in their recent military actions...But I gotta watch out, as I might get a ban for "insulting" the Chinese again.

[Pilotasso]

Alex dont play dumb, you know damn whell whats wrong, do you realy like to be told to like a 6 year old kid?

[Ukr_Alex]

Alex dont play as a fool, you know damn whell whats wrong, do you realy like to be told right like a 6 year old kid?

 

No please explain mate.

 

 

Why this big cover up to be all friendly and such. See the world for how it is and stop trying to cover the nasty realties of life.

 

 

So what is wrong? That I so damn well should know.

 

 

P.S 6 year old? Thats most definetly the general attitude of this thread at the moment. People getting all pissy and insulted instead of trying to come up with a rational argument to counter what I have to say.

[Alfa]

Quit the bickering and stick to the subject of the thread.

 

- JJ.

[Ukr_Alex]

Quit the bickering and stick to the subject of the thread.

 

- JJ.

 

No problem, and I respect that and will stick to that. :smilewink:

 

 

I just dont want people to think that I am here to insult the Chinese nation.

 

 

So whats the subject? :P j/k

[Alfa]

If they are going to be modern multirole fighters they cant do much of that from the carrier. Without unassisted take off, they can only take a very limited load. If more is felt to be needed they have to operate from land bases alongside the J-11's. Moreover, without super carrier class vessel, and no catapults, its bring back capability will be virtualy zero. And that could be a very expensive proposition.

 

No offense Pilotasso, but you are making a lot of unsupported claims :) .

 

The Su-33s in the configuration currently operated by Russia are air-defence assets only - a radar/weapons system as that of the Su-27KUB would, apart from being much more advanced and make them much more capable in the air-to-air role, allow them to search out and engage naval targets with anti-ship missiles. An ASM like the Kh-35 weighs around 480 kg - not much more than the long burn versions of the R-27 missiles(~350 kg) currently carried as standard load and certainly not enough to cause problems for ramp assisted take-offs.

 

What does catapults have to do with "bring back capability"? - the ability to return to the carrier with unused ordinance is entirely down to the strength of the arrestor gear(and the deck). Besides, even Nimitz class carriers have not been able to bring back Hornets with full ordinance until very recently with the transition to the 3-wire system......the very reason for introducing it.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[SwingKid]

I don’t think that China has a suitable carrier that is ready for any su-33, right?

 

Kommersant has a reputation for these types of fantastic "conspiracy" articles. The owner of the paper is a sort of Ahmad Chalabi-type oligarch who wants to be president of Russia, and thinks he can get there by scaring western countries into believing modern Russia and China are a militarily potent axis of evil under their current leadership, in need of regime change. About the only weapons left that it hasn't yet claimed Russia to be mass-producing and proliferating abroad are Terminator-like cyborgs and trained sharks with lasers strapped to their heads.

 

"The Varyag is under construction since 1999..." Sure, I guess they never heard of Google Earth.

 

-SK

[bflagg]

Taiwan has a lot more to fear from shore born cruise missiles than the chinese airforce.

 

Taiwan AF is pretty strong. That Islands softer spot lies somewhere else.

 

 

This can get political very fast..and I will not dance with this devil here ...

I should've kept my hands on the other keyboard...

 

(but . I wish I could sound off...)

[SuperKungFu]

Originally Posted by TucksonSonny

I don’t think that China has a suitable carrier that is ready for any su-33, right?

 

I think thats a no, i remember reading an article that said china purchase about 7-9 aircraft carrier from a couple of nations, most were turned into museums after they studied it. I remember the last aircraft carrier (i forgot the name) they purchased from russia was actually go into service. I think this is the picture of the carrier

[Pilotasso]

You has wrong logic. Not at this moment. Today Su-33 are only air to air missiles (except FAB famiily and S-8, S-13, S-25 rockets).

 

The defense of Taiwan just got that much more harder....

 

Taiwan has a lot more to fear from shore born cruise missiles than the chinese airforce.

 

Taiwan AF is pretty strong. That Islands softer spot lies somewhere else.

 

This can get political very fast..and I will not dance with this devil here ...

I should've kept my hands on the other keyboard...

 

(but . I wish I could sound off...)

 

:unsure: :wassat:

 

My reply not only is a consequence of yours but no more political than yours. Whats your point?

 

And before you ask what mine was, I say it was a mere technical diferenciation between what realy makes it difficult to defend taiwan, not the airforce because it is a credible and capable one. Dont think the Su-33 is going to be that much better than J-11's nor will the chinese want the carrier stand in front of the taiwanese destroyers. The Su-30's and J-11's are very well capable off crossing that distance from the mainland anyway. Then your first post in this thread had gotten me thinking and wonder why would the 33 be anything to the defense of taiwan that the others werent already.

 

Not backing up any of the 2 countries either. Besides they are much better as they are now. Diversity is pretty. :D

[bflagg]

Please explain then.

 

 

You think China is this big superpower? That seems to be what 99% of the general population on the street thinks...and its just plain borring.

 

Americans have the world in check. Personaly I am not worried at some big future Chinese domination. It just aint gonna happen.

 

oh my... Alex...

We American's DO NOT have the world in check (nor should it be our goal)

Please poke your head out of your bravado and really look around.