A2A missiles smoke trail -why and how long?

[SkateZilla]

Solid State Rocket Booster wont have the same contrail characteristics as a Jet Engine.

[GGTharos]

There is no difference (well, ok, one is real and the other one is bits and bytes :D) . What you see in the videos that you have presented is contrail formation, not missile smoke.

The formulation of the AIM-120B/C and future motors is similar (not necessarily the same) as the reduced smoke motor in the latest AIM-9 variants (P3, M and later ... not sure if L had it)

 

It is formed under various different circumstances, or not - as you have seen in other videos. This is not simulated in-game.

 

We doctorate that after all these years here.

 

Can you explain why missiles on video have a smoke trail but in DCS no (ok, they have it as on razo-r`s screenshots )?

 

What is difference between motors in video and in DCS?

[Falcon_S]

Again me and ... (after 5 months)

 

i still think "smoke-less" story in DCS is not realistic...

 

And again... video that show all that smoke in some situations.

 

 

In DCS there are no situation that i can spot AIM120`s or AIM 9 smoketrail. Video, camera, GPU or whatever you can blame - but this is simple unrealistic in DCS.

 

Just bump.

[IASGATG]

Your video shows that the only time you see a trail is when it flies through a cloud. Clouds are client side and so you cannot model that. Same reason why the EOS works through clouds. ;)

[Falcon_S]

Your video shows that the only time you see a trail is when it flies through a cloud. Clouds are client side and so you cannot model that. Same reason why the EOS works through clouds. ;)

 

At:

1:04 white smoke because ground/hill background - no that situation in DCS

1:15 white smoke bacause blue sky background - no that situation in DCS

1:24 white smoke bacause blue sky background - no that situation in DCS

1:29 white smoke because ground/hill background - no that situation in DCS

1:33 we can not see launcher because of the smoke

 

;)

 

less sarcasm and more sincerity - better sim.

[IASGATG]

1:04 white smoke because ground/hill background - The smoke is pooling in the ground, which is fair enough. However when launched in the air with an airspeed in the hundreds of knots, you wont get that pooling.

 

1:15 white smoke bacause blue sky background - A small plume is visible although again a ground launch, the missile is directly in front of the camera and is still pretty close, so this makes spotting it much easier than if you were even a few miles away, let alone at a 180deg aspect.

 

1:24 white smoke bacause blue sky background - A repeat of the one above, although a slightly better argument for you as the missile is about 2 seconds into its flight and you can still just about make out the plume.

 

1:29 white smoke because ground/hill background - Same as my first point.

 

1:33 we can not see launcher because of the smoke - Same as my first point.

 

 

 

less sarcasm and more sincerity - Who is being sarcastic? I'd love to have Flankers and MiG's lose EOS because of clouds!

[Falcon_S]

Close to the camera or not - that amount of smoke should be visible. So there is smoke but no in DCS.

 

And please don`t be based on this video only - there are dozens on internet, pics too. Smoke-less not mean "no smoke" at all guys. I want to say that in DCS is not realistic to not see AIM`s smoke trail at all or smoke-less in DCS is without smoke in conditions above (video).

[razo+r]

Close to the camera or not - that amount of smoke should be visible. So there is smoke but no in DCS.

 

And please don`t be based on this video only - there are dozens on internet, pics too. Smoke-less not mean "no smoke" at all guys. I want to say that in DCS is not realistic to not see AIM`s smoke trail at all or smoke-less in DCS is without smoke in conditions above (video).

 

Once again we have smoke in dcs...

 

Do you know at which altitude with which humidity and temperature smokes in the video ( really a lot of smoke not just the bit like in DCS)? It does only smoke at higher altitudes which you can see sometimes in the video but since we don't know the condition, that can only be guesswork. And further, maybe the aim-120 a has not the same smokeless motor as a newer version.

 

The only thing that DCS doesn't have yet is the missile contrail altitude.

[GGTharos]

You aren't getting thicker smoke for 120s. It's tuned to be as close as possible as the graphics can bring it to the real one.

I see the smoke fine when I launch'em ... the target isn't supposed to though, and that's the point.

 

Close to the camera or not - that amount of smoke should be visible. So there is smoke but no in DCS.

 

And please don`t be based on this video only - there are dozens on internet, pics too. Smoke-less not mean "no smoke" at all guys. I want to say that in DCS is not realistic to not see AIM`s smoke trail at all or smoke-less in DCS is without smoke in conditions above (video).

[Falcon_S]

You aren't getting thicker smoke for 120s. It's tuned to be as close as possible as the graphics can bring it to the real one.

 

We (targets) don`t need thicker smoke but more visible because real one is not invisible as is in DCS.

 

I see the smoke fine when I launch'em ... the target isn't supposed to though, and that's the point.

 

I know what you see when launch and we (targets) need to see at least same in VVR fight but that is not case.

 

I really do not know where you find the information that is as real one - let`s say invisible, although here is interenet full of evidence that is not. Smoke is there, reduced smoke... thin but visible. Reduced smoke is there and can merge with background in some situation (angle and background) then is hard to spot it but as background is not same in missile path that mean trail will not be always hard to spot it. That is real life and that is not in DCS. Missile contrails too.

 

When you say: "I see smoke when launch..." - please switch side with your VVR target and see about what i talking. You will see nothing - no smoke, no thin smoke... nothing. Only on ~1% background if you are lucky and to close maybe you will see thin trail but in next head move you can`t spot it again.

 

This is bad design, bad tuning, bad point of view on smoke-less motor or simple bug. :helpsmilie:

[myHelljumper]

We (targets) don`t need thicker smoke but more visible because real one is not invisible as is in DCS.

 

 

 

I know what you see when launch and we (targets) need to see at least same in VVR fight but that is not case.

 

I really do not know where you find the information that is as real one - let`s say invisible, although here is interenet full of evidence that is not. Smoke is there, reduced smoke... thin but visible. Reduced smoke is there and can merge with background in some situation (angle and background) then is hard to spot it but as background is not same in missile path that mean trail will not be always hard to spot it. That is real life and that is not in DCS. Missile contrails too.

 

When you say: "I see smoke when launch..." - please switch side with your VVR target and see about what i talking. You will see nothing - no smoke, no thin smoke... nothing. Only on ~1% background if you are lucky and to close maybe you will see thin trail but in next head move you can`t spot it again.

 

This is bad design, bad tuning, bad point of view on smoke-less motor or simple bug. :helpsmilie:

 

In WVR I can see AIM-120 and AIM-9M smoke from the motors, but in BVR it's close to impossible.

Isn't it how it should be ?

 

Are you playing on a 4K screen ? Or in VR ?

[red_coreSix]

Honestly, I don't see what the problem you're having is? Maybe try turning up your graphic settings? When I'm on the receiving end of a close range AIM-120 and have tally on the shooter I have no problem seeing the missile and trail, nine times out of ten.

 

I do agree on missile contrails though, it baffles me how such an easy thing hasn't been implemented yet.

[GGTharos]

When you say: "I see smoke when launch..." - please switch side with your VVR target and see about what i talking. You will see nothing - no smoke, no thin smoke... nothing. Only on ~1% background if you are lucky and to close maybe you will see thin trail but in next head move you can`t spot it again.

 

I see smoke as a target often in WVR conditions (under 5nm) - I'm not going to go into spotting it again if you move your head other than to say 'why did you take your eyes off the threat'? ... This is how real aircraft go down you know :)

I would also suggest that if reduced smoke was ineffective at short ranges, there'd be no reason to produce a reduced smoke sidewinder.

 

Obviously we all know that there are no missile contrails ... and I wouldn't hope for any right now, but on the other hand, given the ridiculous 'missile evasion' techniques used on-line, I'm also not that bothered :P

And there's the fact that you can see those missile as DOTS coming in from 20nm away!

 

This is bad design, bad tuning, bad point of view on smoke-less motor or simple bug. :helpsmilie:

 

I disagree. The tuning was worked on for a while and a lot of information was reviewed.

It is possible that there are differences in setups (monitors, gfx and monitor tuning etc) that causes issues for some people as well.

 

One problem with DCS specifically is the amount of time that this smoke hangs around after rocket motor burn-out - it's just a few scant seconds during which it becomes more and more transparent. The fact that the smoke 'fades' quickly would certainly give you an impression of it being hard to spot, because it is: It's already pretty transparent and 'fading' makes it more transparent - so what you get is a rocket motor that will turn out in 2, 5 and 8 sec (9P, 9M, 120) respectively and hang around for just a VERY short time after.

 

Thus I would suggest to tune AAM smoke to remain 'in the air' for say three minutes and then you should be able to re-acquire it when you look in the right place.

[GGTharos]

Because in fact it isn't easy to do correctly. :)

 

Missiles used to have contrails back in the day though, and through a combination of missile guidance and other behaviors they made missiles as easy to spot as the dots do today ... I wouldn't call that realistic either.

 

One more thing: There ARE videos of missiles hitting targets BVR (BVR view). No contrails are visible usually, neither at the time of the hit, nor anywhere close to target when the shooting aircraft flies by and the camera is quite zoomed in. There ARE videos of zoomed in cameras showing contrails of certain SAMs (typically PAC3?) producing contrails just before hitting the target, but the time from impact is so short that frankly I don't believe there's time to do anything about it.

 

And to be clear: What's being asked, as I understand it, is to detect these launches BVR.

And to this I say, 'good luck with that, it won't happen'. :)

 

If the issue is WVR then I got back to graphics and tuning. I wouldn't call it a bug, since I don't know how you'd have to handle these differences.

 

I do agree on missile contrails though, it baffles me how such an easy thing hasn't been implemented yet.

Edited May 26, 2017 by GGTharos

[Falcon_S]

Honestly, I don't see what the problem you're having is? Maybe try turning up your graphic settings? When I'm on the receiving end of a close range AIM-120 and have tally on the shooter I have no problem seeing the missile and trail, nine times out of ten.

 

I do agree on missile contrails though, it baffles me how such an easy thing hasn't been implemented yet.

 

See attachment please...

[razo+r]

As do my pictures show, it depends on the background and the angles (and graphics settings?)

[GGTharos]

Ok, that looks wrong. I can usually see the smoke in this situation. I'll re-check on my end and see, though you're using an unusual resolution (or you cropped the image?) but that should't be a problem either.

 

Edit: I see, it just blends perfectly in some situations ... I think this is color fidelity issue ... not sure if resolvable at all but I can put it in.

Edited May 26, 2017 by GGTharos

[Falcon_S]

Ok, that looks wrong. I can usually see the smoke in this situation. I'll re-check on my end and see, though you're using an unusual resolution (or you cropped the image?) but that should't be a problem either.

 

Edit: I see, it just blends perfectly in some situations ... I think this is color fidelity issue ... not sure if resolvable at all but I can put it in.

 

:worthy:

[red_coreSix]

One more thing: There ARE videos of missiles hitting targets BVR (BVR view). No contrails are visible usually, neither at the time of the hit, nor anywhere close to target when the shooting aircraft flies by and the camera is quite zoomed in. There ARE videos of zoomed in cameras showing contrails of certain SAMs (typically PAC3?) producing contrails just before hitting the target, but the time from impact is so short that frankly I don't believe there's time to do anything about it.

 

And to be clear: What's being asked, as I understand it, is to detect these launches BVR.

And to this I say, 'good luck with that, it won't happen'. :)

 

If the issue is WVR then I got back to graphics and tuning. I wouldn't call it a bug, since I don't know how you'd have to handle these differences.

 

There are plenty of videos that document missile contrails:

 

 

around 5:15

 

I don't see how it would be hard to implement, just say "as long as motor is burning, produce contrail" right? I'm no software guy but seems simple enough.

[Falcon_S]

In WVR I can see AIM-120 and AIM-9M smoke from the motors, but in BVR it's close to impossible.

Isn't it how it should be ?

 

Are you playing on a 4K screen ? Or in VR ?

 

27" monitor, 1920x1080, GPU GTX 780 TI, DCS almost high settings, NV cpanel default + vsyncON

[GGTharos]

It doesn't depend just on the motor burning. You have smoke when the motor's burning (and what's the point of turning smoke if you always have a contrail?). Contrail formation is a whole other thing, and I'm not talking just about contrails caused by the motor.

 

You need humidity information etc. I don't believe this exists in DCS atmosphere. I guess you could just produce contrails wherever the aircraft produces contrails, but this is quite obviously not correct either.

 

I don't see how it would be hard to implement, just say "as long as motor is burning, produce contrail" right? I'm no software guy but seems simple enough.

[SinusoidDelta]

A2A missiles in DCS don't produce contrails? (Serious question, its been a while since I fox 3'd)

[razo+r]

A2A missiles in DCS don't produce contrails? (Serious question, its been a while since I fox 3'd)

 

No

[SinusoidDelta]

On YouTube you'll find a lot of missile test launches. I've seen at least 3 where the jet is not producing a contrail but the missile does.

[GGTharos]

And you'll also see a bunch where the missile produces nothing but the bit of smoke.