Virtual angagement between squads?

[Ardillita]

There has a been an engagement between VVS504th vs JaBoG3... squads?

It is posible that there is a video about it?

[Pilotasso]

shucks! you beaten me to it. I was going to open a similar thread, might as well hijack this one. :pirate:

 

I have participated in some almost squad VS squad matches. IMHo theres something that is never considered in each of these matches. Everyone is fighting for AA kill points. IMHo thats wrong i think. In order to reflect better what you should do better as a virtual squad is to be assigned an objective, and fight for it. AA quakes prompt every player to move arround the map running and maddoging missiles at max range an then turn tail and head straight for base.

 

Real missions would be always a failiure in such case. So I propose in each match to add a target, preferrably a large and visible target at long range, and try to knock it out. The first to achieve that objective wins.

 

Winning by the shear number of aircraft downed could be misleading because in numerical mismatch games, it could also mean the enemy provided more aerial targets.

 

The mission goal should be given a value in points and then judged VS the number aircraft shot down.

[GGTharos]

504 and 44 do red flag missions with relative regularity ... and yes, we do objective-based missions.

 

People who go after kills in those usually get killed and then they hear about it in the debrief.

 

We've had situations where one side got wiped out, and we've had some where one side would be mission-killed, and we've had draws, too (ie. half of defended targets destroyed, some defensive fighters destroyed, some attackers destroyed)

[A.S]

...and a big capture is opened :book: :joystick: :pilotfly: :music_whistling: :thumbup:

[Frostie]

There is a definite Tactical edge needed in squad v squad matches , where refuels and rearming are not permitted as it is unrealistic to rearm in 10secs. So careful deployment of weapons and expenditure of fuel is priorty.

[Pilotasso]

^^^^ IRL you can relieve a landed aircraft with another.

[Frostie]

So join up then Pilot and relieve our sorry arses.:D Rearming just makes it airquake ,so now were back were you started.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, and in real life you have a limited number of aircraft to 'relieve' with. We simulate *zero* for time-based convenience and ease of accounting.

 

We have provisions in place for refueling in case of longer flights, including airbase hops and aerial refueling.

[Woodstock]

It was a great match, 6 vs. 6 BVR, no rearming or refuelling or repairing.

There most probably won´t be a video about it from our side, but TacView files can be downloaded via the link in Ardillita´s first post and here´s a short news about it with results:

http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/index.php?section=news&lang=en

 

Congratulations to the 504s!

[504MrWolf]

To Pilotasso: Get a clue mate.

 

The match between VVS504 and other squads are not air quakes. Take the JaBoG match for instance it was a match of nerves and skill not mad dogging and spamming, tactics and cunning where employed to try to make either side make a mistake. TEAMWORK is the word of the day in these matches without it you die, lone wolfs need not apply.:)

 

Situational awareness and the nerves to stop yourself from falling for the bait played heavily in this match both sides fought well.

 

So please learn how to fly with others as a team and come and join us in a match, we will show you the true meaning of Air 2 Air fun in Lockon.

 

The 504th doors are open to all comers, GMT is the main time used UK/EU although we have pilots all over the world (this takes more dedication due to the timezones).

[firesoldier845]

I had the pleasure once of flying with a squad on one of the nights where they closed their hyperlobby server to the public and it was downright the best time I ever had playing. Believe it or not all they did was fight a huge battle against the AI, no human controlled opponents but it was still a blast and a memorable event for me. They setup a mission to attack a SAM site defended by AI aircraft and it was a ton of fun. I think there might have been about a dozen of us online and it was just a lot of fun. Too bad I don't have more free time otherwise I would join a squad but due to family life and stuff I just can't dedicate the needed time to be there for matches and stuff like that.

[Pilotasso]

To Pilotasso: Get a clue mate.

 

The match between VVS504 and other squads are not air quakes. Take the JaBoG match for instance it was a match of nerves and skill not mad dogging and spamming, tactics and cunning where employed to try to make either side make a mistake. TEAMWORK is the word of the day in these matches without it you die, lone wolfs need not apply.:)

 

Situational awareness and the nerves to stop yourself from falling for the bait played heavily in this match both sides fought well.

 

So please learn how to fly with others as a team and come and join us in a match, we will show you the true meaning of Air 2 Air fun in Lockon.

 

The 504th doors are open to all comers, GMT is the main time used UK/EU although we have pilots all over the world (this takes more dedication due to the timezones).

 

 

You get a clue. I havent played with 504 squad for a LOOONG time. you think I had remained away from such matches all this time? ;)

 

You might want to read my post again btw. You didnt get the essence of it.

 

wasnt even specificaly referring to any of your matches. I have been team balancer outsider merc for JAbog32, EPA, EPN,=IA=, 169, and =RVE= in various occasions, since the 1.0 times. Did CAP, strike, deep strike escort, sweep in team efforts. Im always trying to give any tactical sense to every other public mission such tas the present mini war at 169, I have plenty whitnesses of that, as well as my rants after my teams lack of tactical orientation and cooperation.

 

P.S. joining up the servers squad in such games feels like going for the safe side. I like challenges.

[51GRIZZLY]

Well pilotasso Wolfie still has a point cause you know just as well as all others that the proper way to fly a jetfighter

is in a team IRL a pilot whos not willing or able to work as a member of a team has no chance in hell to become a fighterpilot

There simply is no room for lone wolfs.

 

But im sure your know that allready, so it puzzles me why your not a member of a squad cause with your wast knowledge about

airframes and missiles ( and i guess tactics aswell ) you would be a great asset to any squad you might join.

 

Dont tell me you dont have time enough to dedicate yourself cause your Statistics on all servers show otherwise

( when 504 server started up with its statistics we asked Zorlac to look inside it to check if you where living in there somewhere) :)

 

 

And if you really like challenges it looks to me that being the member of a team, flying your fighter the way its ment and designed

to be flown with all its advantages and drawbacks, is the only challange you havent been willing/able to meet in this game

 

It cant be lack of self confidence ;)

 

what is the reason?

[504MrWolf]

Read your post and got the "essence" that you think ALL squadvsquad are airquake, i was pointing out that they are not using the 504's as evidence.

 

This thread is about the 504 v JaBoG not the "Squad v Squad" you sort of joined, so it sounds like you make assumptions about 504 v JaBoG being just the same.

 

I'm sure this is not the case, so i'm puzzled as to why you even bothered replying in a thread asking for a movie about it. If you dont care about the subject then anything you add to it is pointless, therefore you will get negative replies to you seemingly uneducated reply.

[Pilotasso]

Well pilotasso Wolfie still has a point cause you know just as well as all others that the proper way to fly a jetfighter

is in a team IRL a pilot whos not willing or able to work as a member of a team has no chance in hell to become a fighterpilot

There simply is no room for lone wolfs.

what is the reason?

 

Well last match was 169VS =RVE=. Both sqauds arranged and agreed I was to be on the RVE side. I opened ventrilo and was under orders and flew formation with 5 others into battle, always under the comms, hows that for your notion of cooperation in a squad? ;)

I never fly as a lone wolf in such matches.

 

But im sure your know that allready, so it puzzles me why your not a member of a squad cause with your wast knowledge about

airframes and missiles ( and i guess tactics aswell ) you would be a great asset to any squad you might join.

 

Dont tell me you dont have time enough to dedicate yourself cause your Statistics on all servers show otherwise

( when 504 server started up with its statistics we asked Zorlac to look inside it to check if you where living in there somewhere) :)

 

 

And if you really like challenges it looks to me that being the member of a team, flying your fighter the way its ment and designed

to be flown with all its advantages and drawbacks, is the only challange you havent been willing/able to meet in this game

 

It cant be lack of self confidence ;)

 

what is the reason?

 

I dont like to tell in public this but my reasons are:

 

1) No strings attatched, I want to come and go as I please, there are squad menbers who left or were banned for not attendig regularly.

2)I preffer to fight VS squads using "riff raff" in my team, joining a squad in a public mission often results in a turkey shooting, scaring away greener pilots.

3) I may have spent alot of time playing LOMAC these past months mainly due to the fact that this was my last year at UNI and had only 2 subjects left, donne my part of my thesis (work donne in a team of 3) several months ago, and had to wait for the other 2 parts for months.

4) My carreer in LOMAC is at its twilight right now. As soon as I find a job, will only be able to attent sporadicaly at weekends.

5) In these circunstances my career in a sqaud would be very short.

6) Dont want to get a wrong Idea to anybody, but I have been invited by excelent people who are senior sqaud menbers to join their side, each time I pointed out these reasons, so it wouldnt be very elegant nor coherent on my part to join a particular squad wich would be unfair for the others.

 

 

On an aditional note, I used to belong to a squad back in the times of Janes USAF, they were the Scuba squad: angels of avengeance. was fun for a short while, because that group of pilots had a big rival squad at the time, but after those seased to apear we owned everyone else in immense turkey shootings. I had quit awsome sessions in order to attend to my squad, and for a while i sensed like a rogue menber, and soon after I quit the squad after difficulties in being online at those times of the day.

[Pilotasso]

Read your post and got the "essence" that you think ALL squadvsquad are airquake, i was pointing out that they are not using the 504's as evidence.

 

This thread is about the 504 v JaBoG not the "Squad v Squad" you sort of joined, so it sounds like you make assumptions about 504 v JaBoG being just the same.

 

I'm sure this is not the case, so i'm puzzled as to why you even bothered replying in a thread asking for a movie about it. If you dont care about the subject then anything you add to it is pointless, therefore you will get negative replies to you seemingly uneducated reply.

 

I had not aimed at your sqaud, if you feel that my suggestion (because its just that) is, then take no offense but its your problem not mine.

Let me assist you:

 

Everyone is fighting for AA kill points. IMHo thats wrong i think. In order to reflect better what you should do better as a virtual squad is to be assigned an objective, and fight for it.

 

Winning by the shear number of aircraft downed could be misleading because in numerical mismatch games, it could also mean the enemy provided more aerial targets.

 

The mission goal should be given a value in points and then judged VS the number aircraft shot down.

 

So, in your last mission how did you measure your losses and victories?

Because when I see those acessments I see planes downed VS victories and no team objectives referred.

Did you have stations in the map, like CAP's and strike pakages?

 

there you go:

http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/index.php?section=news&lang=en

 

"in a highly suspenseful squadwar over 2 winning rounds this evening, the vJaBoG32 has lost incredibly tight against the pilots of VVS504 with 3:6, 6:3 und 3:4 kills. Congratulations and thanks a bunch for this great match goes to our opponents, we are looking forward to a revanche in the not too far future!"

 

 

So let me recapitulate the "essence" of it: Individual records should be taken in account only after fighting for objectives and not for running arround the map for AA points. Hit and run doesnt cut it IMHO you have to stay for your ground and theres no measure for this in almost every mission debrief I've seen.

 

IMHO should be something like this:

 

Team X defeated team Y by fullfilling its objective. Total team balance is XXX score points VS YYY loss points. Pilot A B C achieved N victories over M losses. Pilot x gave the blow of mercy winning the mission for his team.

 

Another case: Team X won after team Y ran out of planes and left their main asset unprotected (limited number of spawns).

 

yeat another: Team X won the mission despite taking slighly more losses but breaking through team Y's defenses successfuly destroying their protected main asset. Pilot X gave the blow of mercy.

 

More: Team draw, neither side could destroy each others main asset. All AG planes destroyed. Pilots A B C achieved K:L ratio.

[HRZ]

Ok. guys, as one not being in any squad and impartial as such, I have managed to arrange a special interview with one of the famous 504th pilots, Lieutenant Breadfan Breadfanovich Breadfanovsky, also known as (504)Breadfan. He also gave me his insight on 504th squad matches, while we were sipping coffee in a restaurant near Maykop.

 

He was wearing his special occasions uniform, although he had a training flight some half an hour ago, he decided to change quickly and look good for the camera. I also noticed recruits saluting him all the time. It was more then a millitary rule of conduct, they had genuine respect for their training officier.

 

The day was sunny and perfect for a nice interview, so here it goes:

 

HRZ: Hello Breadfan! Wassup?

 

(504)Breadfan: Nah..same old, same old.

 

HRZ: So, did you read about that stuff on Lockon.ru about 504th vs JaBog32 match?

 

(504)Breadfan: Uhm..what stuff?

 

HRZ: Well, you guys flew against Jabog recently and there's a TACview track posted on the forums about it.

 

(504)Breadfan: Oh? Well, yeah, it was a great match! Both squads were really relying on tactics and neither side took any chances, it was very simmilar to those RL red flags and trainings.

 

HRZ: Really? So, it wasn't like those usual squad vs squad air quakes?

 

(504)Breadfan: Uhm, squad vs squad airquakes?

 

HRZ: Yeah, there is this guy Pilotasso on lockon.ru saying most squad matches are basically air quakes without objectives and it all comes down to who destroys who.

 

(504)Breadfan: Well, you know Pilotasso..he's sometimes full of ****.

 

(504)Breadfan: Ok. you won't publish my last comment, I think it's a bit inapropriate and I don't want my superiors see it, as I had some disciplinary issues before.

 

HRZ: No problem m8.

 

(504)Breadfan: Thanks buddy!

 

HRZ: Anyway, can you tell us something about the match itself, how did it go?

 

(504)Breadfan: The match was a blast, both squads flew tactical formations and were 'probing' each other, looking for the weakspots and utilizing the smallest gained advantage to their favour. I remmember JaBog had F15C pilots flying really high supressing any of our flanking attempts and most of the time, the first engagement would end up as a "draw" and we had to regroup. Unlike some less experienced squads we flew against recently, there was no rushing in "for the kill", as that would be a certain death for anyone who tried it.

 

HRZ: Did you have some special rules, like refueling and rearming related?

 

(504)Breadfan: Yeah, R&R was not allowed and we had a 2 winning rounds rule, so it was pretty exciting, all the more reason not to take any chances.

 

HRZ: So, what was the deciding factor in winning the match?

 

(504)Breadfan: As I said before, it was tactical cat & mouse play all the way. I remmeber our last round both squads ran out of fuel and medium range missiles, and we had like, 3vs3 orbiting around bullseye and waiting for the other team to make a mistake. Eventually, Jabog guys got short on fuel and had to RTB first, so that was basically a decider. All we had to do to win that round, was for our remaining flight to land in formation and in one peace.

 

HRZ: Wow. Did you personally score any kills?

 

(504)Breadfan: Actually no. In the previous 2 matches I scored 8 kills, but in this one, all my missiles would be simply spoofed or trashed by JaBog pilots. They were very disciplined and had obviously good leadership.

 

HRZ: Did you get hit?

 

(504)Breadfan: Yeah, once fatally. During the match I got hit twice by a heatseeker, but the second one damaged my plane, I lost HUD and some of the hydraulics but managed to safely bring my bird back to Anapa by reading the gauges.

 

HRZ: What can you tell to all those lone wolfers about being in a squad?

 

(504)Breadfan: Yeah, most of the people think squads are only for hard core no life simmers, which is absolutelly wrong. 80% of the 504th members have a daily job and other work/fammily responsibilites and we all manage to make a nice balance between RL stuff and online flying.

And although I consider ourselves a high quality squad (both skill and especially, people-wise) we are always open to new guys willing to learn from A to Z. All we expect from a recruit is a genuine will to participate in the trainings. In return, our officiers offer wealth of knowledge which will bring pilot's Lockon experience to a completely new level, and this reason alone is actually enough to become part of the community. ;=)

 

HRZ: Ok. Breadfan, you have a rollcall in about 5 minutes so I'll just ask you few more questions for the end and that's it, ok?

 

(504)Breadfan: Yeah, go ahead.

 

HRZ: Would you like to send a message to the lockon.ru community?

 

(504)Breadfan: Yeah, you're a great bunch of guys! Whenever I have time I take a look at the forums and see what's going on, quite a lot quality posts, most of them really funny.

 

HRZ: Speaking of funny, do you know Kenan?

 

(504)Breadfan: Mmm, no, I don't think so.

 

HRZ: Ok. Breadfan, once again thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, I wish you and 504th best of luck!

 

(504)Breadfan: Thanks buddy! Bye! Bye!

[Pilotasso]

Now its skizofrenia time? dont let anyone see you talking to yourself. :lol:

[Frostie]

Extract of comms during match:

(504)Breadfan

" Holy fu(£in shi7.. bbba..ndit two..dribble.seve..no..ninezero..purp...two four zero.....bandit..coming...to..get..me..save...me..saveme..quick..

help..im...going...left..pastthe...thing...thefraggin.greenthing...the..hill..

HEs..comin. HES COMIN......

Oh my..(sigh and farty kinda sound)

FOX(spam)2.....

(Heavy Breathing)

FOX(spam)2......lets.get.the..fudge. outta.here"

[504MrWolf]

I must have a wrong idea of A2A, it past RL conflicts the A2A engagements are for air superiority over a given area.

 

The matches that i have been involved in mirror this, 6v6 is like a fighter sweep.

 

Find enemy and kill them then fly home, im sure this is a main objective in RL conflicts. So we dont play to your xxyycczz scheme......sorry.

 

Real war is based on kills and victories using teamwork to achieve them, when the threat is removed the side that as removed it is "deemed" the winner/victor.

 

I cant see the USAF command letting up on Iraq because squad 1 held area XX for 10mins and enemy 3 lost one plane but where pushed back to area Y and the mission timer ran out :), lets go home guys we won !.......

 

But who cares really, this is how we do it and nobody cares and everyone enjoys. Thats all that matters and if it doesn't fit your scheme then thats your problem.

 

Which brings me back to my point "why bother replying" ?

shucks! you beaten me to it. I was going to open a similar thread, might as well hijack this one. :pirate:

 

Was your similar thread going to request a track or movie of our match with the jabog or just to simply moan about how you dont like this kind of match which you also tell us you frequently enjoy flying with other squads !!

 

POINTLESS..............So to tie this all up. I dont care if you dont like this sort of "AirQuake" but i care about you hijacking a request thread and saying our match is like all the others you dont like but frequently fly in.

[Ardillita]

I think the purpose of my thread was missunderstood: I just wanted to know if such engagements had taken place, because I saw a link in some place but requested a passwd, and I just was interested in watching the fight. I wasn´t my intention to cxreate a discusion (not a bad one at least) about how this engagement should be.

[Pilotasso]

I must have a wrong idea of A2A, it past RL conflicts the A2A engagements are for air superiority over a given area.

 

The matches that i have been involved in mirror this, 6v6 is like a fighter sweep.

 

Find enemy and kill them then fly home, im sure this is a main objective in RL conflicts. So we dont play to your xxyycczz scheme......sorry.

 

Real war is based on kills and victories using teamwork to achieve them, when the threat is removed the side that as removed it is "deemed" the winner/victor.

 

I cant see the USAF command letting up on Iraq because squad 1 held area XX for 10mins and enemy 3 lost one plane but where pushed back to area Y and the mission timer ran out :), lets go home guys we won !.......

 

But who cares really, this is how we do it and nobody cares and everyone enjoys. Thats all that matters and if it doesn't fit your scheme then thats your problem.

 

Which brings me back to my point "why bother replying" ?

 

Was your similar thread going to request a track or movie of our match with the jabog or just to simply moan about how you dont like this kind of match which you also tell us you frequently enjoy flying with other squads !!

 

POINTLESS..............So to tie this all up. I dont care if you dont like this sort of "AirQuake" but i care about you hijacking a request thread and saying our match is like all the others you dont like but frequently fly in.

 

Fine, have your way then. You figured it all out. congrats. You win. just making a suggestion but its ok.

[Laud]

I don't really see the point as most squads do both, combined A-A/A-G missions with different goals to archive on both sides as pure A-A missions where the task is to clean the front-line-area ofenemy fighters.

 

As LOMAC has some lack of performance when trying to create a realistic battlefield scenario (multiple tanks and other vehicles (maybe about 500 in the featured area)) you always have to see whats possible to do. Next point is that it takes a lot of time creating maps for combined mission and to find dates where both squads manage to bring 4 bomber pilots plus 4-6 fighter pilots. I prefer combined missions too, but I wouldn't name a fighter sweep an "air-quake". Just depends on the way it is flewn.

 

To the topic: If I get an e-mail adress I'll send the TacView-files, no prob!

[51GRIZZLY]

Another thing here is the time issue.

The more complex a map is the more time it takes to fly it.

The fist 20 min. mostly go by getting people into the server and ready cause with Lomac theirs allways something coming up for someone, either server or game issues so some have to restart or even reboot!

 

Just a simple 5 vs 5 round without any greater finess then killing or disable all opponents can easyly last up to 45 min. when both sides dont take any chances and fly tactical and diciplined.

 

Ad that up with further tecnical /software problems that easily can occur, by eventually, switching sides for each round

and you end up with 3½ - 4 hours and thats about the exhaustion limit for most pilots flying online.

 

Now dont say maybe a match should be devided over 2-3 weeekends i tell you that won't work cause their's no garantee there will be as many pilots available second or third round so that kind of match could draaaag on for month getting postphoned again ande again and i dont think anyone would be happy with that.

[Pilotasso]

Another thing here is the time issue.

The more complex a map is the more time it takes to fly it.

I don't really see the point as most squads do both, combined A-A/A-G missions with different goals to archive on both sides as pure A-A missions where the task is to clean the front-line-area ofenemy fighters.

 

As LOMAC has some lack of performance when trying to create a realistic battlefield scenario (multiple tanks and other vehicles (maybe about 500 in the featured area)) you always have to see whats possible to do. Next point is that it takes a lot of time creating maps for combined mission and to find dates where both squads manage to bring 4 bomber pilots plus 4-6 fighter pilots. I prefer combined missions too, but I wouldn't name a fighter sweep an "air-quake". Just depends on the way it is flewn.

 

My idea does not implicate the creation of too complex scenarios. Just one main target and minimal defenses arround it, AAA igla. Thats because AA fighters are meant do that job. The intention here is only to give each plane a concrete task and prevent pilots from running sensless across the map. There would be CAP patterns and strike pakages. You would have 2 people doing CAP, and 3 others on a strike pakage. If you had more members you would do CAP relief's or multiple cap patterns, or attack the objective from 2 different directions for luring the enemy. Sweeps are still possible but off course you cant just forget you got a ground to cover back home. ;)

 

Winners would be those with better sense of flying a mission, not a deathmatch. (mr wolf, again, if you dont see the difference between a suggestion and an accusation turn a blind eye please).

 

I dont see it lasting more than the normal time you use for multiple AA furbals.

 

To the topic: If I get an e-mail adress I'll send the TacView-files, no prob!

 

I never requested nor did ever intended to "overview" others people matches. My refference to it was merely to make an example of a squad VS squad match. Its not my business to poke my eye in it anyway. Cheers! :)