johnv2pt0 Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I've only found two references to this topic neither of which has had any official response. The gun dispersion seems quite a bit larger than it should be. I don't have any data to share, but I'm wondering if this is something that is on the bug to do list or if it's already been looked at and decided it's as it should be. I know this is a burning question for quite a few people, so if you can shed any light on it I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, would appreciate it!
shaunwallis21 Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 johnny look at my despersion thread i started there is a ED response saying we will look into it. thats as good as we can get untill it is adressed
Aries144 Posted March 25, 2017 Posted March 25, 2017 Can we get any word on whether or not this subject has been noted by Belsimtek? This is really an annoying bug.
Svend_Dellepude Posted March 25, 2017 Posted March 25, 2017 They are looking in to it. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD.
sirscorpion Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 Gun Dispersion is about right, to be honest other Aircrafts have it the other way around. the m2000,mig21 and all the red fc3 aside from the F15. all have insanely small dispersion. Only one that should have dispersion that small is the Gau8, and even then its still too small of a group "slightly".
dolfo Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 I do not have anything factual to contribute, but: I do remember F-5E pilots mentioning effective air to air cannon range to be just over 1000ft; it was mentioned 3000 would be a nominal max range but the large dispersion made it improbable to get concentrated hits on anything at that range. M-2000 drivers had incredibly accurate air to air cannons. Some (most) would intentionally aim for the connection between the banner and the tow plane, and it was said to be easy to hit (but terminated the exercise for the day). Of course F-5E drivers also did shoot the banner away on occasion, but it would either be at close range or a lucky shot, M2K drivers could produce it on demand until the CO told them to stop being funny and promised to discipline the next perpetrator. Anyway, I know none of this helps. But I think there is a chance the F-5 cannon dispersion might be just correct as it is - even if the specs in some books promise better performance.
sirscorpion Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) The DEFA on the m2000 is about 2mil dispersion at 1000m. so so thats about 2m dispersion, the Gau12 for comparison is 5mil at 1000m Edited March 31, 2017 by sirscorpion
Aries144 Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 The DEFA on the m2000 is about 2mil dispersion at 1000m. so so thats about 2m dispersion, the Gau12 for comparison is 5mil at 1000m The dispersion of the F-5's gun in game looks to be around 40 mil, just watching the dispersion in the reticle. The M39 is supposed to be 8 mil, same as the M61. Also, is there any information about what size the target in the Swiss video is and what range the aircraft were firing from?
dolfo Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 Also, is there any information about what size the target in the Swiss video is and what range the aircraft were firing from? I would not waste time putting any thought on the Axalp shooting videos so as to infer dispersion values. Pilot inputs being an unquantifiable variable. I have seen a wide range of groupings over there, from very tight, 4 points on target to extremely wild and inaccurate shooting. One year Duck08 almost shot the mountain cabin near the targets while spreading his shells around the intended aimpoint. Not to diminish the valiant pilot's efforts, but to illustrate the point that we do not know what is causing the pattern dispersion on a video.
sirscorpion Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 I would not waste time putting any thought on the Axalp shooting videos so as to infer dispersion values. Pilot inputs being an unquantifiable variable. I have seen a wide range of groupings over there, from very tight, 4 points on target to extremely wild and inaccurate shooting. One year Duck08 almost shot the mountain cabin near the targets while spreading his shells around the intended aimpoint. Not to diminish the valiant pilot's efforts, but to illustrate the point that we do not know what is causing the pattern dispersion on a video. I dont know much about aircraft cannons details, but shooting 30mm from an IFV back in the 90s, autocanons do have a wide dispersion when on full RPM. now not saying its as much as an F5, but definitely way more than lots of other aircraft that at the moment nearly have laser pattern.
Aries144 Posted March 31, 2017 Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) I dont know much about aircraft cannons details, but shooting 30mm from an IFV back in the 90s, autocanons do have a wide dispersion when on full RPM. now not saying its as much as an F5, but definitely way more than lots of other aircraft that at the moment nearly have laser pattern. Yeah, I've seen the same thing first hand firing various small arms. However, the thing is we have manufacturer data about the precision standards of the weapon when fired in full auto, on the ground, during weapon sight zeroing. The above Northrup document states that the accuracy standard is 8 mil, 80%. There are actually documents (Cartridges of the World I think?) that show the M39 cannon shooting 1 MOA (aprox 0.25 mil) when it is securely mounted and single fired on the ground, so 8 mil sounds about right for high ROF full-auto. The issue is that, all pilot error aside, the cannons are currently spraying rounds in a pattern that is so large it would actually be impossible to replicate in real life without the cannon rounds being completely destabilized ,tumbling end over end, and curving wildly all over the place like a US baseball pitcher throwing curveballs. ETA: Completely jealous of your experience firing a 30mm on an IFV. Fun memories! :D Edited March 31, 2017 by Aries144
razo+r Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 If you watch some axalp videos, for example this here: you can compare the dispersion from our swiss F-5 with the dispersion of the DCS F-5...
shaunwallis21 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 i dont care what the number say. 8 mil might mean 8 meters at 100 meters but no gun is this inaccurate they are making bullets disperse as they leave the barrel when in reality most of the bullet deviation occurs past 500 meters. the m61 vulcan in combined arms shoots such a large group at 100 meters that if someone where to make a gun so inaccurate they would be fired. the 20 mm cartridge is capable of 1 MOA
dolfo Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 ...8 mil might mean 8 meters at 100 meters ... 1000m?
Aries144 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 i dont care what the number say. 8 mil might mean 8 meters at 100 meters but no gun is this inaccurate they are making bullets disperse as they leave the barrel when in reality most of the bullet deviation occurs past 500 meters. the m61 vulcan in combined arms shoots such a large group at 100 meters that if someone where to make a gun so inaccurate they would be fired. the 20 mm cartridge is capable of 1 MOA Whoa, slow down man. 8 mil = 8m at 1000m = 80cm at 100m. Remember, that's the factory minimum for the test (more than 80% of rounds outside of an 8 mil circle and the gun fails the test, probably to be rebarreled or to have the ammunition lot tested) and it's also when firing full auto at a very high rate of fire. The same gun firing a single shot at the same distance would likely show far smaller group sizes, as Cartridges of the World seems to indicate. It would be interesting to try and contact some of the maintenance personal working on F-5Es in the US Aggressor squadrons and obtain more detailed information about group sizes when the guns are tested. Maybe they tend to shoot better than that until they near maximum wear?
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