F-15 still pulling 14G with two bags and no damage

[Pocket Sized]

If the current hydraulic model is too powerful, I'd suspect it can't be any more than 5% or so.

 

There is a notch just below Mach 1 where you can overstress the real aircraft by A LOT if you're not careful. This notch is modeled, but I don't know if the absolute values are correct. Same goes for the region of reduced lateral stability between 0.55 and 0.75 Mach.

[Sweep]

Gotta find that F-15 overload chart...Basically, around 20k and transsonic the G limit is 7.33 (IIRC on a clean jet?), at some point it's 8.5 and then back to 9.0 at other points in the envelope.

 

The OWS, to my knowledge, should account for that and provide appropriate warning (HUD indication/beepers).

 

Maybe GG or SinusoidDelta have that chart? It was posted on here last year...Edit: and yeah i did a quick search for it. couldn't find it unfortunately.

[JunMcKill]

And does anyone have Razer's track? Did he actually pull ~15g or is this just a product of lag? Because lag WILL make it appear to be like this. Not saying it didn't happen, but.

 

Also, it was a less than one second spike ... hardly a huge issue. Not saying it isn't one - if those bags were full then the airframe shouldn't be in flight any more regardless :D

 

We already did GG, dont you remember? Enzel did a single player test with the F-15C making lots of barrel rolls with bags full and ordnance, in the test we reach 14.4Gs, the force should detach one bag, while the other smash the wing up! :D

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by JunMcKill

[JunMcKill]

Razer timed his turn with the knowledge that he had this high g capability. If he chose to limit his g then I assume he would time his turn differently. My point is that both turns would still yield a good advantageous position, so the high g capability isn't too significant here.

 

Say Pyro reduced his speed to around corner and performed a sliced break turn then Razer would have to reduce his speed also to prevent an overshoot when timing his turn. These speed reductions would eliminate the 14g capability from the equation altogether which yet again would make this ability rather insignificant.

 

Also, my statements are independent of my existence in any events. To say otherwise seems like a rather lazy attempt to dismiss my argument tbh :( ; I welcome you to expose any fallacies with logic.

 

Oh and how dare you assume I'm not an ACE! :joystick:

 

I was making a joke in the first statement sorry if you dont get it, and what I exposed are not fallacies at all, are well explained arguments with logic since the first post.

[Sweep]

Edit: This is about that video posted just above.

 

Lmao

 

That comment I made earlier about which is worse, the flying or the survival of it...Yeah that applies!

 

I feel like a lot of overstress incidents could be avoided by better flying - There should be consequences for flying like that. (edit II: don't mean to jab the video pilot's flying, it's a very good demonstration, IMO, of what some people do with the Eagle)

 

Gonna be fun watching 3 bag asymmetric G loading in a year or so! :megalol: Hopefully Sith gets this looked at and revised.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Sweep

[JunMcKill]

Edit: This is about that video posted just above.

 

Lmao

 

That comment I made earlier about which is worse, the flying or the survival of it...Yeah that applies!

 

I feel like a lot of overstress incidents could be avoided by better flying - There should be consequences for flying like that. (edit II: don't mean to jab the video pilot's flying, it's a very good demonstration, IMO, of what some people do with the Eagle)

 

Gonna be fun watching 3 bag asymmetric G loading in a year or so! :megalol: Hopefully Sith gets this looked at and revised.

 

In fact we did the video to prove this argument a while ago.

 

- single player test (no lag possibility)

- Full bags (checked in the cockpit zoom)

- Full ordnance (all AIM-120C checked in zoom)

- Fast stupids barrel rolls to reach more than 10Gs and overstress both wings in different directions (checked)

 

:D

Edited March 28, 2017 by JunMcKill
spelling

[Higgeh]

I was making a joke in the first statement sorry if you dont get it, and what I exposed are not fallacies at all, are well explained arguments with logic since the first post.

 

Sorry, it is pretty difficulty to tell when you are serious or not because many of your posts are sprinkled with :D

 

I think there is a consensus that 14g turns not breaking the wings is unrealistic. I'm just contending its significance and whether or not this issue should be a high priority.

[JunMcKill]

Sorry, it is pretty difficulty to tell when you are serious or not because many of your posts are sprinkled with :D

 

I think there is a consensus that 14g turns not breaking the wings is unrealistic. I'm just contending its significance and whether or not this issue should be a high priority.

 

You are right, my fault ( I laugh for everything IRL)! :pilotfly:

 

I think the damage model for all FC3 aircraft should be addressed, because is simply like in other games is considered a buff, and consequently, can be exploited. Aside, that makes the F-15 more realistic, that's in the end, what we all want, isn' it?

Edited March 28, 2017 by JunMcKill

[Sweep]

In fact we did the video to prove this argument a while ago.

 

- single player test (no lag possibility)

- Full bags (checked in the cockpit zoom)

- Full ordnance (all AIM-120C checked in zoom)

- Fast stupids barrel rolls to reach more than 10Gs and overstress both wings in different directions (checked)

 

:D

 

Yup, I believe that was in the thread where a lot of hostility started about this problem. I do believe that people could correct their flying style before this is fixed, but there are always people who will abuse bugs for competitive advantages (see the S key for example).

 

Also, do a barrel roll! :D

 

[GGTharos]

That isn't my point. I already know the airframe should break up at 14g. In the video presented, there's a spike to ~15g for a fraction of a second. My point is that this had no significant bearing on the fight at all.

 

So, I agree the FM needs fixing ... I disagree that it's causing some huge exploit train that's costing you k/d :D

 

We already did GG, dont you remember? Enzel did a single player test with the F-15C making lots of barrel rolls with bags full and ordnance, in the test we reach 14.4Gs, the force should detach one bag, while the other smash the wing up! :D

 

[GGTharos]

We don't have that documentation that explains the details of the OWS limits, instead we have real f-15's pulling 10 real g's in that 'notch' (and the crew chiefs yelling at them after). This is no fragile uhh, swan, it's an eagle ;)

 

The OWS isn't just a system to tell the pilot to be careful, it's a maintenance aid.

 

Gotta find that F-15 overload chart...Basically, around 20k and transsonic the G limit is 7.33 (IIRC on a clean jet?), at some point it's 8.5 and then back to 9.0 at other points in the envelope.

 

The OWS, to my knowledge, should account for that and provide appropriate warning (HUD indication/beepers).

 

Maybe GG or SinusoidDelta have that chart? It was posted on here last year...Edit: and yeah i did a quick search for it. couldn't find it unfortunately.

[JunMcKill]

Yup, I believe that was in the thread where a lot of hostility started about this problem. I do believe that people could correct their flying style before this is fixed, but there are always people who will abuse bugs for competitive advantages (see the S key for example).

 

Also, do a barrel roll! :D

 

 

Indeed, the S key and W (AoA) is a good example, now the SU-27 pilots know they can pull above the limits but at their own risk!, and depending of their load, fuel weight and speed. Besides, the SU-27 needs more changes in the damage model, for example, detaching the weapons when flying above certain speed limit with weapons in different pylons for too much time.

 

 

 

1. Ограничения по скорости в зависимости от варианта размещения ракет:

− 1-2 – не более 1300 км/ч;

− 3-7 – не более 1200 км/ч.

2. При любом варианте несимметричной подвески максимальная положительная перегрузка уменьшается на ΔПу=2, а выход на отрицательную перегрузку запрещается.

3. В варианте основной подвески (2хР-73Э на точках 7, 8 и 2хР-27ЭР1 (2хР-27Р1) на точках 1, 2) – без ограничений по скорости.

4. Во всех вариантах подвески могут применяться неполные боекомплекты ракет.

5. Допускаются варианты несимметричной подвески ракет, за исключением полной односторонней и вариантов с дисбалансом взлетной массы не более 450 кг.

6. На симметричных точках допускается подвеска только однотипных ракет.

7. Встроенная пушка применяется во всех вариантах с подвесным оружием и без него.

8. Для обучения и тренировки летного состава по применению боевых ракет типа Р-27 во всех режимах СУВ. за исключением режима φо для ракет с ТГС, используются учебно-тренировочные ракеты Р-27УТ, укомплектованные различными типами ГСН. Ракеты применяются в режимах: 470-1УТМ с РГC, 470-ЗУТМ с ТГС. Установка режима производится при наземной подготовке путем перестыковки разъема, расположенного в торцевой части ракеты. Готовность ракеты к повторной атаке обеспечивается автоматически через 1-2 минуты с момента сброса цели РЛПК.

9. В учебно-тренировочных полетах ракеты Р-73Э применять только с 5, 6 или 3, 4 точек подвески (для исключения разрушения остекления АНО).

10. Допускается попарная симметричная подвеска ракет Р-27ЭР1 и P-27P1 одновременно на разных парах точек.

 

Rough translation:

 

1. Limitations on the speed, depending on the version of the deployment of missiles:

- 1-2 - not more than 1300 km / h;

- 3-7 - not more than 1200 km / h.

2. For any variant of asymmetrical suspension, the maximum positive overload is reduced by ΔPu = 2, and the output to negative overload is prohibited.

3. In the variant of the main suspension (2хР-73Э at points 7, 8 and 2хР-27ЭР1 (2хР-27Р1) at points 1, 2) - without speed limits.

4. In all variants of the suspension, incomplete ammunition sets of missiles can be used.

5. Versions of asymmetrical suspension of missiles are allowed, with the exception of full one-sided and variants with an unbalance of take-off mass not more than 450 kg.

6. At symmetrical points, suspension of only one type of missile is allowed.

7. Built-in gun is used in all versions with and without hanging weapons.

8. For training and training of flight personnel for the use of R-27 type combat missiles in all regimes of WMS. With the exception of the φο regime for missiles with TGS, training missiles R-27UT, equipped with various types of GOS, are used. The missiles are used in the following modes: 470-1UTM with RGC, 470-ZUTM with TGS. The mode is set during ground preparation by reconnecting the connector located in the end part of the rocket. The readiness of the missile to be re-attacked is provided automatically after 1-2 minutes from the moment of the reset of the target of the RLPK.

9. In training flights, the R-73E missiles should only be used with 5, 6 or 3, 4 suspension points (to eliminate the destruction of the ANO's glazing).

10. A pairwise symmetrical suspension of R-27ER1 and P-27P1 missiles is allowed simultaneously on different pairs of points.

[Sweep]

We don't have that documentation that explains the details of the OWS limits, instead we have real f-15's pulling 10 real g's in that 'notch' (and the crew chiefs yelling at them after). This is no fragile uhh, swan, it's an eagle ;)

 

The OWS isn't just a system to tell the pilot to be careful, it's a maintenance aid.

 

Interesting! Thanks for the info.

 

Also: beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!

 

You know, what 9g+ sounds like in our Eagle. :D

[GGTharos]

Thanks for the translation. There are similar types of limitation for the F-15, eg. using more than a certain amount of AoA with an asymmetry of more than 5000 foot-pounds can cause departure from controlled flight. Yes, it is modeled - I don't know how accurately but it's there. Again it applies to high AoA (35 units or more).

 

There are, however, no instructions for less g etc. Maybe this is not a big surprise: Most of the F-15 missiles are lightweight compared to an R-27ER.

 

Indeed, the S key and W (AoA) is a good example, now the SU-27 pilots know they can pull above the limits but at their own risk!, and depending of their load, fuel weight and speed. Besides, the SU-27 needs more changes in the damage model, for example, detaching the weapons when flying above certain speed limit with weapons in different pylons for too much time.

[Pocket Sized]

Somebody said something about a chart?

 

(The large, dashed area is where 9G is permissible, the "hole" indicates regions where the allowed G is reduced, down to 7.33 in the center)

[GGTharos]

And the chart is from which document? :)

 

Also, the 12.5g incident happened 'in the hole'.

[Pocket Sized]

And the chart is from which document? :)

 

http://aviationarchives.net/Eagle-Talk-Vol2-Tech.pdf

 

Page 53.

[*Rage*]

Issue has been reported, no time line on a resolution...

 

:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Thanks! :)

 

I've seen some of these articles before, but not all of that.

 

http://aviationarchives.net/Eagle-Talk-Vol2-Tech.pdf

 

Page 53.

[lunaticfringe]

Yeah you have.

 

I gave them to you before I posted them here. :P

[GGTharos]

Thanks - I don't think I read all of them, that's why I remember seeing this. You're the man :D

 

Back to the article itself, very clear that the OWS is meant to protect the service life of the aircraft ... Code one is effectively a 'non issue', and looks like it's up to 110% of the g-limit.

[Falcon_S]

From Your fav tactics against Su-27 in a merge ?

 

SPAMRAM the merge, then dump remaining 120's after completing 15g turn to get on his six.

 

My favorite F-15 tactic. Works well in BVR too.

 

:)

[Pocket Sized]

Would anyone happen to know why the G limit goes down to 7.33 in that particular region of the flight envelope? Some piece of the airplane getting stressed more than usual?

[IASGATG]

Would anyone happen to know why the G limit goes down to 7.33 in that particular region of the flight envelope? Some piece of the airplane getting stressed more than usual?

 

Transonic = not your friend.

[The Black Swan]

We don't have that documentation that explains the details of the OWS limits, instead we have real f-15's pulling 10 real g's in that 'notch' (and the crew chiefs yelling at them after). This is no fragile uhh, swan, it's an eagle ;)

I take personal offense at this statement.

:)