Questions about MiG-21 FM after todays update.

[BadHabit]

I ran to my pc today to install the new OB so I can taste all the cookies M3 got for us today only to find my jaw on the floor by how the mig feels so alien and unreal like ever before! Honestly how the hell can this gone out?! Roll inertia is complete gone, plus the plane acts more like a violent FBW system is on it! The hole feeling I had flying the mig even in the latest buggy release version is gone. Honestly i just flew the take off instant mission to found that alien thing rolling like there is no tomorrow. I won't even bother to post a track or file or video or post on bug tracker. This is nuts go see for your selfs and fix it! I AM TIRED!

[Dolphin887]

Not the bug.

 

Check your roll/pitch curves, try setting them according the manual.

 

MiG-21 have documented max. roiling speed of ~420 deg/sec. This patch actually fixes the slow roll and inertia MiG had before.

[BadHabit]

Dolphin I used about 10-15 for X and Y it was fine. I just had to set the curve to 40 just to be in control. Where is the inertia where did drag go. The only positive I saw was stall behavior. This update is wrong I can't comment more. Go see for your self. I just installed release again cause I wanna fly the mig not M2k and the mig in the OB feels like more a mirage to me sorry.

BTW thanks for the starforce update and the keys.

[Dolphin887]

I understand your frustration after using MiG with wrong roll rate for so long.

 

But this is more closer to reality then previous setup.

 

Fact is - even with increased roll rate, roll is still intentionally decreased a bit, since the gaming equipment (joysticks) have very little movement limits compared to the real MiG stick, making the simulated plane feels "too agile". This is subjective feeling caused by the limitations of a gaming hardware (I elaborated this in details in one document I have created for ED).

 

My recommendation is to spend some time flying the patched MiG, with whatever curves setup you see fit, you might start to like it eventually.

 

Regards.

[BadHabit]

Dolphin ok about the roll rate, but it doesn't feel right after the vanishing of the roll inertia, it just doesn't comply with my senses. I am trying to spend more time but It's not something I can digest. It feels wrong. I am not a dev or an expert at aeronautics and can not make my point valid. It is just wrong to me. I will wait and see other users thoughts on the new FM.

[cro_mig_21]

I feel that the new FM is really closer to reality...it just had too much inertia and really slow roll rate..I for one am beginning to like the new FM with the sweet spot for me being at dead zone 3 for the both axis and the curvature set to 25 for roll and 8 for pitch while using an 26cm extension on my warthog. I am under the impression we got accustomed with the wrong FM for too long as Dolphin said. This AC now behaves how I would expect it to...precise..

imagine doing this 4 point roll with the previous FM ;) (2:22)

[BadHabit]

Honestly I was fine with the previous ones. AoA was my only issue. This feels way to much unreal for me (speaking only for the roll rate) and every video I watched so far the inertia was there, now when the input stops the aircraft magically locks attitude and a small bounce to the opposite side of the input is visible, exactly the same experience I have with the F-15C or the M2KC. FM and the feel of it was the reason I fly the mig and that feeling is complete off now.

[Pocket Sized]

Now the real question: are the disastrous effects of roll coupling modeled? (At high roll rates the aircraft should have a tendency to depart unexpectedly)

 

Also, I'd love it if somebody would go into more detail about the updated stall behavior. I'm away from home and my open beta install is gone.

[PabstBleuRibbon]

Now the real question: are the disastrous effects of roll coupling modeled? (At high roll rates the aircraft should have a tendency to depart unexpectedly)

 

Also, I'd love it if somebody would go into more detail about the updated stall behavior. I'm away from home and my open beta install is gone.

 

Yeah this, I'm wondering does the Mig have a known flight limitation for consecutive rolls, or full deflection rolls, before departing from controlled flight? That one F/A-18 video comes to mind.

[sideshow]

At least controls for the gunpods are back. Haven't tried nukes or countermeasures yet.

[Pocket Sized]

Yeah this, I'm wondering does the Mig have a known flight limitation for consecutive rolls, or full deflection rolls, before departing from controlled flight? That one F/A-18 video comes to mind.

 

I vaguely remember the flight manual mentioning roll coupling at high speed, but at the time I didn't understand the phenomenon well enough to make sense of it. I should be getting my hands on the new update within the next few hours, so we'll see then.

[BadHabit]

:joystick:Just run some more quick flights in it. Oversensitive roll response in X axis 35 curves which advance in very fast rolls as speed increases.

Aileron Booster set to off roll has more natural response, however this switch is mandatory to be on in flight especially in high speed maneuvering tho I was able to maneuver just fine in any speed and I was in better control. :joystick:

Enabling stabilizer gives me a lot better feel off the aircraft in all axis except rudder which is horribly changed to make the ac unstable especially in low speed level flight (landing) and maneuvers. The mig was supposed to be rudder efficient to low speed and used for roll extensively which in the OB is forever gone. Using rudder to roll is a no go in this FM.

[Pocket Sized]

Out of curiosity, have you ever flown the F-5? Now that's a properly roll sensitive aircraft.

[Neuman]

In this patch, FM corrections were quite good. Now the nose of the plane drops, even if the handle of the aircraft is fully taken over. But in my opinion some parameters on acceleration were lost. Acceleration must be reduced. The airplane accelerates too fast. It would be great if someone who knows how to do nomograms posted them here. Thanks again for the work done.

[Dolphin887]

Acceleration must be reduced. The airplane accelerates too fast. It would be great if someone who knows how to do nomograms posted them here. Thanks again for the work done.

 

Can you be more specific please? Under which circumstances (flight conditions) you observe excessive acceleration?

 

 

Acceleration was extensively tested, it's set up according to valid curves (not all published curves are valid).

[Neuman]

Can you be more specific please? Under which circumstances (flight conditions) you observe excessive acceleration?

 

 

Acceleration was extensively tested, it's set up according to valid curves (not all published curves are valid).

 

 

I took it as a standard. Perhaps you have other(different) nomograms - but according to this it turns out that the acceleration from 0.7M to 1M is overestimated.

[probad]

21 was the first thing i took out on a walk, it's certainly more believable than the last few iterations we had. high aoa and stall characteristics are certainly the best we have had to date now, no more pogosticking into space

[Dolphin887]

Curve at 13.000 is wrong by large margin.

 

The rest of the curves comply with simulated model, precisely measured under defined conditions. I may post the charts later, in separate topic (I don't have them here).

[BadHabit]

Maybe I am flying a different aircraft cause I can't comment worse enough on this FM..

[Neuman]

Curve at 13.000 is wrong by large margin.

 

The rest of the curves comply with simulated model, precisely measured under defined conditions. I may post the charts later, in separate topic (I don't have them here).

 

Excellent! Perhaps I myself make mistakes in testing techniques. If there is an opportunity then I will gladly look at your curves. at altitude 1-3 km

[probad]

maybe your module needs repairing, with the aileron booster off the roll rate is acceptable... if this was a cessna 172

[BadHabit]

I am running another repair hoping that my files are messed up. Tho I really don't bet on it.

 

NOPE!

Edited March 31, 2017 by BadHabit

[Charly_Owl]

I ran to my pc today to install the new OB so I can taste all the cookies M3 got for us today only to find my jaw on the floor by how the mig feels so alien and unreal like ever before! Honestly how the hell can this gone out?! Roll inertia is complete gone, plus the plane acts more like a violent FBW system is on it! The hole feeling I had flying the mig even in the latest buggy release version is gone. Honestly i just flew the take off instant mission to found that alien thing rolling like there is no tomorrow. I won't even bother to post a track or file or video or post on bug tracker. This is nuts go see for your selfs and fix it! I AM TIRED!

 

Maybe I am flying a different aircraft cause I can't comment worse enough on this FM..

 

I am running another repair hoping that my files are messed up. Tho I really don't bet on it.

 

NOPE!

 

Mate... if you want to be taken seriously, provide MEANINGFUL feedback with actual quantitative data and your testing method instead of throwing a tantrum. A FM cannot be tuned or corrected with meaningless feedback like "roll inertia is complete gone", "I won't post any track" "this is nuts" "fix it" "worse FM"...

 

The "feedback" you provided won't get anything solved. Be practical. Be accurate and exhaustive. Otherwise, it's just senseless whining, which is of no use to anybody here.

[Pocket Sized]

I just tried it and maybe the roll inertia is a bit low. If it is, it's not far off.

 

Habit, you have to remember the fishbed is literally a flying javelin, so roll response is going to be very snappy no matter what.

 

I tried and failed to cause any violent departures with roll coupling, but it feels like it's there to some extent.

 

Stall behavior: DEFINITELY a step in the right direction. Pitching moments at very high AoA are much greater now, which prevents you from flying around at 40-70 degrees like you could before.

 

The coefficient of lift doesn't drop as much as it did before, but there's still a very pronounced "jolt" as you pass the critical AoA. Of course I can't tell for certain, but I don't think that should be there. It makes post stall maneuvers (ie spins) very jerky and random due to the pitching transients caused by AoA going above/below critical.

[BadHabit]

The "feedback" you provided won't get anything solved. Be practical. Be accurate and exhaustive. Otherwise, it's just senseless whining, which is of no use to anybody here.

 

Mate I am tired thats why!