IAF Su-30MKI defeaded UK F3 Tornados. Next the EF2000...

[TucksonSonny]

And this is where I call BS :)

If you think that a Flanker can just dump an F-15 off its tail with a 'climbing turn', you're being fed something :)

 

Once you're in a controlling position, its pretty much over. This is why DACT /never/ starts with 'someone on the tail'. 8/4 o'clock is the most advantage you'll get in the setup and that's plenty already. What a bunch of BS.

 

My guess is that the flanker frame was more resistant at high speed turning (read 1.7+ Mach at 18 degrees) and that the two-seat F-15D couldn't keep up in a steep climbing turn with the Su using full afterburner because of this.

Note that fighters like Mirage2k or ef2k with delta-wings have also advantage while doing maximum speed turns (= different from optimal speed turns which is doing the fastest 360 degree turn). My guess is that due to a more efficient aerodynamic airframe the flanker can have more maximum high speed G-turns probably like the F-15C single seat version.

This or the F-15 pilot f*cked up his tail chase.:D

[Guest IguanaKing]

A T.I.E. (twin ion engine) fighter would pwn them all. George Lucas said so in his books. I hear he even made a few movies about the subject. That's probably just a rumor though. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

My guess is that the flanker frame was more resistant at high speed turning (read 1.7+ Mach at 18 degrees) and that the two-seat F-15D couldn't keep up in a steep climbing turn with the Su using full afterburner because of this.

 

Note that fighters like Mirage2k or ef2k with delta-wings have also advantage while doing maximum speed turns (= different from optimal speed turns which is doing the fastest 360 degree turn). My guess is that due to a more efficient aerodynamic airframe the flanker can have more maximum high speed G-turns probably like the F-15C single seat version.

 

This or the F-15 pilot f*cked up his tail chase.:D

 

My guess is that the interview took place over a few pitchers of beer at the local watering hole. :D

[D-Scythe]

ViperEagle, there has been at least one about western media keeping quiet about the flanker winnings in mock combat againts the F-15C/D, witnessed bu USAF specialists. Accompanied by an IL-76MD suppost aircraft, two operational Su-27 UBs piloted by MAJ. Gen. N. Chaga, Col. A. Kharchevskiy, and Maj. Ye. Karabasov of the VVS Combat and conversion training center in Lipetsk paid a visit to Langley AFB, VA, home of the 1st TFW. After a warm welcome and a short rest, Maj. Karabasov proposed holding session of mock combat with an F-15 over the base so that spectators could watch. However, USAF officials deemed such a show to be " too militaristic "and offered to hold the session in a military training area 200 km off the coast of Virginia instead. One can hardly blame them for not wanting to lose face in front of an audience if the Eagle lost to a visiting Flanker on its home ground.

 

The plan was that first a two-seat F-15D would try to shake a pursuing Su-27 off its tail, then the two would change places. Maj. Karabasov flew the Su-27, with a USAF pilot in the instructor's seat. A single-seat F-15C flew as chase plane. As the go signal was given the F-15D engaged full afterburner and tried to get away, but the Su-27 stayed on his tail, using full military power or minimum reheat. The Flanker's AOA never exceeded 18 degrees. When it was the Eagle's turn to attack, Karabasov kicked in full afterburner and entered a steep climbing turn. The F-15D followed suit but couldn't keep up. After a 540 degrees turn the Russian got an F-15 in his sights - the wrong F-15, as it turned out - he had inadvertently " shot down " the F-15C chase plane flying further aft! Realizing his mistake, Karabasov made for the other Eagle and soon got another lock-on. Try as he would, the F-15 pilot could not shake the pursuer. This Proved that the Su-27's advantage in maneuverability was due to a more efficient aerodynamic layout, not just a larger lifting area.

 

Source: WarbirdTech series - Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker Volume 42 -

 

That's only half the story. The next sortie, another F-15C pilot, Captain Pete Mitchell (a navy transfer credited with 3 MiG-28 kills flying F-14s) went up against a Su-37 Terminator, which the Russians flew in because they knew Captain Mitchell was such an amazing pilot.

 

In the first scenario, the Maj. Karabasov in the Su-37 started on the F-15's six. Capt. Mitchell hit the brakes and the -37 flew right by. Instant kill. In the next round, the Eagle started on the Terminator's six. Capt Mitchell turned his F-15 around to purposely put his opponent on his six, which baffled Maj. Karabasov, but then his plan became clear when the F-15 hit the brakes again forcing the Terminator to overshoot. Splash two.

 

Source: Warbirdfeces series - Boeing F-15 Eagle Volume 52

[GGTharos]

My guess is that the flanker frame was more resistant at high speed turning (read 1.7+ Mach at 18 degrees) and that the two-seat F-15D couldn't keep up in a steep climbing turn with the Su using full afterburner because of this.

 

You're joking, right? ... I mean seriously.

[Guest IguanaKing]

That's only half the story. The next sortie, another F-15C pilot, Captain Pete Mitchell (a navy transfer credited with 3 MiG-28 kills flying F-14s) went up against a Su-37 Terminator, which the Russians flew in because they knew Captain Mitchell was such an amazing pilot.

 

In the first scenario, the Maj. Karabasov in the Su-37 started on the F-15's six. Capt. Mitchell hit the brakes and the -37 flew right by. Instant kill. In the next round, the Eagle started on the Terminator's six. Capt Mitchell turned his F-15 around to purposely put his opponent on his six, which baffled Maj. Karabasov, but then his plan became clear when the F-15 hit the brakes again forcing the Terminator to overshoot. Splash two.

 

Source: Warbirdfeces series - Boeing F-15 Eagle Volume 52

 

Being a Navy transfer, I'll bet the rank of Captain gave Mitchell a fleeting moment of absolute glory...until he realized that he was a Captain in the Air Force. :D Good stuff, Scythe! Rep inbound!

[ViperEagle]

ViperEagle, there has been at least one about western media keeping quiet about the flanker winnings in mock combat againts the F-15C/D, witnessed bu USAF specialists. Accompanied by an IL-76MD suppost aircraft, two operational Su-27 UBs piloted by MAJ. Gen. N. Chaga, Col. A. Kharchevskiy, and Maj. Ye. Karabasov of the VVS Combat and conversion training center in Lipetsk paid a visit to Langley AFB, VA, home of the 1st TFW. After a warm welcome and a short rest, Maj. Karabasov proposed holding session of mock combat with an F-15 over the base so that spectators could watch. However, USAF officials deemed such a show to be " too militaristic "and offered to hold the session in a military training area 200 km off the coast of Virginia instead. One can hardly blame them for not wanting to lose face in front of an audience if the Eagle lost to a visiting Flanker on its home ground.

 

The plan was that first a two-seat F-15D would try to shake a pursuing Su-27 off its tail, then the two would change places. Maj. Karabasov flew the Su-27, with a USAF pilot in the instructor's seat. A single-seat F-15C flew as chase plane. As the go signal was given the F-15D engaged full afterburner and tried to get away, but the Su-27 stayed on his tail, using full military power or minimum reheat. The Flanker's AOA never exceeded 18 degrees. When it was the Eagle's turn to attack, Karabasov kicked in full afterburner and entered a steep climbing turn. The F-15D followed suit but couldn't keep up. After a 540 degrees turn the Russian got an F-15 in his sights - the wrong F-15, as it turned out - he had inadvertently " shot down " the F-15C chase plane flying further aft! Realizing his mistake, Karabasov made for the other Eagle and soon got another lock-on. Try as he would, the F-15 pilot could not shake the pursuer. This Proved that the Su-27's advantage in maneuverability was due to a more efficient aerodynamic layout, not just a larger lifting area.

 

Source: WarbirdTech series - Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker Volume 42 -

 

 

According to now Lt. Colonel Tom Murphy, who was then a Captain, that DACT never happened. I trust him completely. He was a pilot for the 1st Fighter Wing, out of Langely Virgina. He left 1st FW shortly before this happened, but he knows several of the pilots who were "supposedly" involved. They said it never happened.

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/f15vssu27sm_1.htm

 

 

The WarbirdTech Flanker article, and the Yefrim Gorton book are exhaulting something that never happened.

[Pilotasso]

WTH you guys been drinking?! :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Source: Warbirdfeces series - Boeing F-15 Eagle Volume 52

He, he, he …. What a book series eh … And the book authors are ...? :megalol::megalol:

[SUBS17]

I have you same point of view :) The problem is are some many people that believe today the F-15C and F-16_B52 are not be able to loose in Air to Air combat.

 

Some people say and try to find excuses when any NATO or US combat plane fail in any simulated Air Combat ... some common are ...

 

1. The US / NATO planes have less number than the oponent.

2. No AWACS support.

3. Not similated AIM-120 / AIM-9X.

 

In Kosovo 1999 the NATO have 1,025 combat Planes vs only 14 old and not combat ready Mig-29A. The Mig-29A have no ECM, No Chaff, No avanced Missiles. But the NATO side claims this was a big victory for the NATO planes.

 

_Cope India was not be the only time that the F-15C was defeated. In 1992 RUS SU-27UB meet the US F-15C/D in Alaska. This time the Su-27 winn over the F-15C.

 

I understand in my opinion that the US / NATO side need more training when they have to meet large Air Force that have Pilot well training and equal Combat Planes.

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

 

Only aircraft ever to shoot down an F-15 in actual combat is another F15.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, an F-15J.

[p_o_d_2_2]

what about the F-22? or did you mean actual combat as in not training?

[Guest IguanaKing]

Shooting an F-15 down with a live missile, as opposed to a simulated one. ;) It was a blue on blue between two Japanese F-15Js.

[p_o_d_2_2]

wow, i never heard about that.

[Pilotasso]

Sorry to dig this old post, but it deserves some straightining out. :D

 

I have you same point of view :) The problem is are some many people that believe today the F-15C and F-16_B52 are not be able to loose in Air to Air combat.

In Kosovo 1999 the NATO have 1,025 combat Planes vs only 14 old and not combat ready Mig-29A. The Mig-29A have no ECM, No Chaff, No avanced Missiles. But the NATO side claims this was a big victory for the NATO planes.

 

Teen F's can be defeated,but you gotta find planes and training to match them. Yugos had no way to compete with of both these aspects because they had less training and under maintained planes. So wether the Mig-29A deserves to be dissed or not is inconclusive from your point of view.

NATO never claimed any "big victory". It was quite predictable how well the migs would stand. There was never any gloating arround for an outcome that everybody expected and practicaly granted.

 

Some people say and try to find excuses when any NATO or US combat plane fail in any simulated Air Combat ... some common are ...

 

1. The US / NATO planes have less number than the oponent.

2. No AWACS support.

3. Not similated AIM-120 / AIM-9X.

 

I would add a few items here:

4. Su-30MKI is the only reasonably updated russian plane in full service today.

5. Indians training is light years ahead of other russian hardware (of inferior quality compared to the indians) anywhere.

6. Exercises usualy do not simulate and dont tell anything about missile reliability and their real world PK (nor would anyone be willing to show how good or bad their weapons realy are)

7. Real war isnt made to give the oponent a chance.

 

 

My personal Opinion, is that you shouldnt kid yourself by comparing block 52 F-16's to Mig-29A even assuming pilot skill and plane airworthiness to be on the same level. The pilot in the falcon is much more well treated than with the migs. Less radar perfomance, less range, less situational awareness, less BVR missiles perfomance etc etc. Its even more dispar with the F-15, so it makes little sense to think that the mig's quality would be any different than it actualy is under different circunstances that you could never use to make that acertainement.

[TucksonSonny]

Shooting an F-15 down with a live missile, as opposed to a simulated one. ;) It was a blue on blue between two Japanese F-15Js.

 

I can well imagine it:

Pilot1: “Locked Bandit of blue team OK”

Pilot1: “Fox 3 Ok”

Pilot1: “One Japanese F-15J destroyed OK”

Wing commander: “WTF, Get the f*ck back here you m*ther-f*cker”

Pilot1: “OK” :D

[Anytime]

Sounds like a sales pitch to me ;) Similar to the one below.

 

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000976.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/745557.cms

[Starlight]

Sounds like a sales pitch to me ;) Similar to the one below.

 

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000976.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/745557.cms

 

 

I can't see any problem why a refurbished Mig-21 couldn't shoot down a modern fighter. At BVR a modern equipped MiG-21 could easily outperform an early-block F-15 or F-16. At BVR avionics count more than anything else (an aircraft is basically a systems/weapons platform, it could fly as a brick), that's all... and the size, the Mig-21 is a really small ac so detection range is quite limited. If it's also equipped with ECM it's even harder to be locked-on.

[GGTharos]

I can't see any problem why a refurbished Mig-21 couldn't shoot down a modern fighter. At BVR a modern equipped MiG-21 could easily outperform an early-block F-15 or F-16.

 

An F-16, maybe. An F-15? Don't get your hopes up ... the F-15 has a much larger antenna to begin with, and it already had 'find that little plane' modes from the outset (Vector/Velosity scan comes to mind)

 

At BVR avionics count more than anything else (an aircraft is basically a systems/weapons platform, it could fly as a brick), that's all... and the size, the Mig-21 is a really small ac so detection range is quite limited. If it's also equipped with ECM it's even harder to be locked-on.

 

 

The MiG-21 barely has any space to add anything in it - in particular the radar antenna is limited to a relatively small one, and you'd need to be ages ahead in technology to overcome the APG-63's capabilities just based on that measure.

 

Some day, what you say could become true. Not today.

[Starlight]

The MiG-21 barely has any space to add anything in it - in particular the radar antenna is limited to a relatively small one, and you'd need to be ages ahead in technology to overcome the APG-63's capabilities just based on that measure.

 

Some day, what you say could become true. Not today.

 

I said the MIg-21 but I could have said a Hawker Hunter or any other vintage jet... I mean any old aircraft with sufficient room for new avionics could be rewired and equipped with state-of-the-art avionics, enabling him to kill any modern opponent...

That was my point.

The Mig-21 Bison AFAIK could be equipped with R-77 or some kinda ARH missiles. If that was the scenario, an early F-15A with -7F Sparrows could have a tough time winning at BVR. Anyway that's quite sci-fi.... but just because USAF doesn't use F-15A and AIM-7F anymore ;)

 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/AeroIndia2003/Static-UPG04.jpg

[Pilotasso]

I said the MIg-21 but I could have said a Hawker Hunter or any other vintage jet... I mean any old aircraft with sufficient room for new avionics could be rewired and equipped with state-of-the-art avionics, enabling him to kill any modern opponent...

That was my point.

The Mig-21 Bison AFAIK could be equipped with R-77 or some kinda ARH missiles. If that was the scenario, an early F-15A with -7F Sparrows could have a tough time winning at BVR. Anyway that's quite sci-fi.... but just because USAF doesn't use F-15A and AIM-7F anymore ;)

 

Theres no measure for R-77 efecteviness yet but the poeple who know the russian missile writes its admitably inferior. The mig cant compete with F-15 in equal terms (even less considering its combat persistence) unless it slips past the eagles detection for a closer shot. It apears thats the indian tactic for that plane, and wisely so. :)

[GGTharos]

The Mig-21 Bison AFAIK could be equipped with R-77 or some kinda ARH missiles. If that was the scenario, an early F-15A with -7F Sparrows could have a tough time winning at BVR. Anyway that's quite sci-fi.... but just because USAF doesn't use F-15A and AIM-7F anymore ;)

 

Given that the F-15A would still out-detect and have the first shot with the APG-63, I don't see much of a problem for an F-15A taking on an R-77 equipped MiG-21 ;)

 

You can't just shove a bunch of avionics and turn a little fighter into some sort of BVR machine which it was never intended to be and can never be. ;)

Even against an old F-15A ...

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Who cares if it was 200 to 1, …

He, he, he …It looks like you care very much. Otherwise you would not respond to me mentioning it, right? Why do you care Cali? Get over it. :thumbup:

… how long are you going to bring this up?

As long as people like you care about it. And as long as people “forget” to mention it when they talk about air conflict over Yugoslavia.

Get over it, who won....and who lost?

You are turning this discussion into politics and I will not go there. See your PM for the second part of this answer.

Say whatever you want about the odds.

I say Yugoslavia did not stand a chance against 19 NATO countries. Yet UN resolution 1244 kept the country of Yugoslavia together. Freedom!

[GGTharos]

Yet it is still a good provider of MiG-29A performance capbilities, at least insofar as pilot intwrviews go. And that was the point all along.

[nscode]

Yet it is still a good provider of MiG-29A performance capbilities, at least insofar as pilot intwrviews go. And that was the point all along.

 

no, not really. i'm not even going to repeat the reasons why ;)