A/G weapons splash damage

[Sylosis]

I know this might not be a Mirage only topic, but since I'm mostly using the M2000C these days, and that the people here are quite helpful, I decided to post my question here. I hope you don't mind. Also I found only 1 post talking about this topic, but it was related to a very specific issue and dated from 2012...

 

So my question is:

 

Is it normal that the "splash" damage is so low in DCS? I've noticed it yesterday doing Mission 6 from the M2000C Campaign, but I tested with the F5 and it's the same thing.

 

Whenever I use bombs and rockets, I need a direct hit to kill my targets.

 

Again refering to Mission 6 of the campaign:

In this mission, there is a group of multiple vehciles next to each other. My bombs were falling right in the middle of that packed group, but not hitting directly one of the trucks. I was not getting any kills. Sometimes bombs were falling probably 2 to 3 meters from the vehicule and nothing.

 

I'm not an expert at all, so I don't know what would be the "danger zone" of the Mk82s (the bombs from Mission 6), but damn 2 to 3 meters from a vehicle... I would think that a real bomb would destroy the thing. We're not talking about a hand grenade here... it's 500 pouds of explosive!

 

So I was basically wondering is it possible that DCS is not a very good representation of reality when it comes to bomb and rocket damage?

 

If indeed it is not very well simulated within DCS, is it better in version 2? Is ED working on something?

 

And in case it is actually quite well modeled, I must admit I am surprised. I was expecting such bombs to destroy a lot of things in a relatively big radius.

[Tirak]

I know this might not be a Mirage only topic, but since I'm mostly using the M2000C these days, and that the people here are quite helpful, I decided to post my question here. I hope you don't mind. Also I found only 1 post talking about this topic, but it was related to a very specific issue and dated from 2012...

 

So my question is:

 

Is it normal that the "splash" damage is so low in DCS? I've noticed it yesterday doing Mission 6 from the M2000C Campaign, but I tested with the F5 and it's the same thing.

 

Whenever I use bombs and rockets, I need a direct hit to kill my targets.

 

Again refering to Mission 6 of the campaign:

In this mission, there is a group of multiple vehciles next to each other. My bombs were falling right in the middle of that packed group, but not hitting directly one of the trucks. I was not getting any kills. Sometimes bombs were falling probably 2 to 3 meters from the vehicule and nothing.

 

I'm not an expert at all, so I don't know what would be the "danger zone" of the Mk82s (the bombs from Mission 6), but damn 2 to 3 meters from a vehicle... I would think that a real bomb would destroy the thing. We're not talking about a hand grenade here... it's 500 pouds of explosive!

 

So I was basically wondering is it possible that DCS is not a very good representation of reality when it comes to bomb and rocket damage?

 

If indeed it is not very well simulated within DCS, is it better in version 2? Is ED working on something?

 

And in case it is actually quite well modeled, I must admit I am surprised. I was expecting such bombs to destroy a lot of things in a relatively big radius.

 

You may find this pertinent to your questions.

 

[Fri13]

And in case it is actually quite well modeled, I must admit I am surprised. I was expecting such bombs to destroy a lot of things in a relatively big radius.

 

Well, many say something about Mk82 or such bombs requiring a direct hit...

 

But if we turn around to another branch, that is causing most kills and destruction in the wars.... It is the artillery.

 

And what can a 155mm artillery shell do to tanks?

 

http://imgur.com/gallery/gIjCo

 

Sorry, couldn't find the URL for the actual PDF file of the article... But still even the most modern MBT today is vulnerable to artillery shell like couple decades ago, and today every other tank from IFV to AAA etc are just like decades ago.

 

So which one will have more punch in them, a 155mm shell or a 250-500kg iron bomb?

 

50kg and 250kg bombs...

 

And here is all the 4 episodes:

 

And as a sidenote...

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/seventy-years-world-war-two-thousands-tons-unexploded-bombs-germany-180957680/

 

So does the DCS have inferior damage "modeling" (there is no such thing as damage modeling in DCS for explosions, total lack of fragments simulation etc etc)? Yes....

 

Dropping a 100-250kg bomb 20-30m from a any tank would mean that there is very good change to knock it off from the combat so it can't continue, at least in full performance.

 

You don't need to blow a tank like shooting a tin can with a shotgun to achieve a "kill".

[jojo]

It's a complex thing, bomb's effect depend on what ground it would detonate on. Sand or mud would dissipate a part of the energy.

 

But YES, DCS has it wrong. It jas been like that for years.

 

For dumb bombs released by fast jet fighter, within 20m of the target is considered a good release.

The blast and fragmentation effect is severe up to 30m, and still dangerous beyond that, especially for soft target.

 

500lbs bomb weight 227kg including 80kg of explosive.

A NATO 155mm HE shell is around 30kg with 8kg of explosive.

 

There is also a problem with gun shells. IRL 20mm and 30mm HE shells have a fragmentation radius that would injure infantry.

In DCS you can try to straff infantry with A-10, and you will see some soldiers still standing in the middle of ground impact less than 1 foot from them.

Rockets have the same problem...

[Sylosis]

It's a complex thing, bomb's effect depend on what ground it would detonate on. Sand or mud would dissipate a part of the energy.

 

But YES, DCS has it wrong. It jas been like that for years.

 

For dumb bombs released by fast jet fighter, within 20m of the target is considered a good release.

The blast and fragmentation effect is severe up to 30m, and still dangerous beyond that, especially for soft target.

 

500lbs bomb weight 227kg including 80kg of explosive.

A NATO 155mm HE shell is around 30kg with 8kg of explosive.

 

There is also a problem with gun shells. IRL 20mm and 30mm HE shells have a fragmentation radius that would injure infantry.

In DCS you can try to straff infantry with A-10, and you will see some soldiers still standing in the middle of ground impact less than 1 foot from them.

Rockets have the same problem...

 

Yes this is also part of my conclusion after doing some additional digging. But, if it's been "wrong" for so long, has ED improved the physics in 2.0?

 

Or is it at least planned?

[Stratos]

 

 

So I was basically wondering is it possible that DCS is not a very good representation of reality when it comes to bomb and rocket damage?

 

 

Exactly! And not very good representation is an euphemism, DCS sucks at spalsh damage representation.

[iLOVEwindmills]

You may find this pertinent to your questions.

 

 

I don't think anybody is debating that tanks should die from splash, the problem is that even completely unarmoured vehicles need a near direct hit to be destroyed.

 

And let's not even get into how poor clusterbombs perform.

 

It's something that will hopefully be addressed at some point, but I never heard anything official on it.

[Gunny Highway]

I don't think anybody is debating that tanks should die from splash, the problem is that even completely unarmoured vehicles need a near direct hit to be destroyed.

 

And let's not even get into how poor clusterbombs perform.

 

It's something that will hopefully be addressed at some point, but I never heard anything official on it.

 

Fragmentation needs to be modeled for other purposes also (flak). I would also argue trying to kill a tank with a weapon lacking some form of explosively formed or kinetic penetrator is an excercise in futility. Especially considering there is no mobility kill modeled in DCS.

[Azrayen]

Hi

 

Why are we discussing this in Razbam's forum section?

[Ramsay]

Why are we discussing this in Razbam's forum section?

 

The OP is enjoying the M-2000C and while playing mission 6 of the campaign,

noticed DCS's poor Mk-82 splash damage. As he's found this subsection friendly,

he's asking if it's normal/realistic.

 

I know this might not be a Mirage only topic, but since I'm mostly using the M2000C these days, and that the people here are quite helpful, I decided to post my question here.

...

Again refering to Mission 6 of the campaign:

In this mission, there is a group of multiple vehciles next to each other. My bombs were falling right in the middle of that packed group, but not hitting directly one of the trucks. I was not getting any kills. Sometimes bombs were falling probably 2 to 3 meters from the vehicule and nothing.

The discussion has broadened to cover DCS damage modelling in general and the Mk-82 but seems on topic (no posts are critical of the M-2000C because of it).

 

There are long threads in the A-10C and F-5E subsections on the Mk-82, so it seems as appropriate here.

 

Edit: For the OP, there is this useful post in the F-5E section that has Mk 82 and Snakeye depression tables for an Australian Mirage IIIO. They'll give a general idea for dive angles, altitudes, speeds and a chance to test the manual M-2000C sight if so desired.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Ramsay