LO's MiG-29

[RvETito]

I agree but I suppose ED is lacking the info to model it. It's not something you could find on the net like that...

[hitman]

That can be said for any fighter - they might suck in some ways, but if you can get the enemy to play you're game then you've won.

 

The trick to winning is finding a dumber pilot to fight against.

 

True...but you cant deny that even a weak pilot can still have a good chance in a dogfight with the MiG.

[MBot]

I think our opinion of the Mig-29A is not entirely honest. We keep comparing it with the updated F-16's and F-15's that defeated it on several but in fact limited occasions. But you can look at it from another point of view: when the Mig-29 was fielded, with HMS, R-60/R-73 and R-27T, the Belgian air force, e.g. flew F-16A lightweight interceptors with only 2 AIM-9N sidewinders (no, not the Lima indeed!) and NO ECM gear!

 

The germans flew the immortal F-4F with NO radar-guided missiles, only 4 sidewinders, for the most part of the eighties and till late in the nineties with outdated AIM-9J's. OK, they had at least ALQ-119.

 

The French flew Mirages (mostly F-1's) with obsolete missiles like R-550, and very dubious semi-active missiles.

 

So, I really think the only problem of the Mig-29A is that we have put it in Lockon together with more evolved fighters.

 

 

Well said ! I realy think this is something to consider when reviewing the MiG-29A.

[ViperEagle]

All of this because one Mig-29 ate a bird during a high alpha pass? Come on, grow up, it all depends on piloting skills, and their judgement. If someone tries doing too much in too little time, it will go wrong, engine stalls have not much to do with this, at least, not on the mig-29 and su-27 series. Just admit that the F-teen engines are more prone to engine stalls, don't keep on whining, making wrong comparisons and showing opinions on how you like US jets. Please compare the state of the average Russian/eastern airfield and that of a nato compliant one, then stop the whining about engines. They have very robust engines, but the quality of them isn't as high as that of US made ones, nonetheless, the engines are capable of handling disturbed airflows, mostly due to the intake vane geometry.

 

Sorry for going off-topic.

 

I do believe I said that it wasnt a bash on Russian aircraft or pilots. And what I SAID is that the AIR FORCES have different policies when it comes to demos, not the airshow venues. "Just admit that the F-teen engines are more prone to engine stalls, don't keep on whining, making wrong comparisons and showing opinions on how you like US jets."Yes..they are vulnerable to compressor stalls. And in the ENTIRE post I didnt whine, or make an unfair shot, I was responding to a statement that said that the F-teen series were incapable of doing tailslides. Dont come off nasty at me please, all I did was state my opinion and facts, I didnt come off saying that the Russian pilots suck, or Russian aircrafts suck, or blah blah. Essentially, yes, it boils down to uncontrolable elements, such as mechanical problems, and pilot error, however, most USAF demo policies have limits and requirements that some Russian demos do not, this isnt a aircraft issue, it's an Airforce policy and regulation issue.

[D-Scythe]

True...but you cant deny that even a weak pilot can still have a good chance in a dogfight with the MiG.

 

And nobody can deny that a weak pilot can have a good chance BVR with the F-15C or MiG-31. That's the whole point of DACM - play the game to your strengths, and deny your enemy the chance to do the same.

 

BTW, the MiG-29 doesn't really out-strip its opponents in maneuverability until the fight starts getting to slow speeds. At that portion of the envelope, the only other comparable fighter is the F/A-18. At higher speeds the Viper does better (as well as the M2000 I think).

[RvETito]

..Yes..they are vulnerable to compressor stalls.

 

Nope, they aren't. The RD-33's and AL-31's have extremely stable compressors. If we consider Kvochur's MiG-29 crash at Le Bourget in 1989 as a flameout caused by compressor stall that's 1 of 1000000 case and if this has been the real reason then it should be considered as a malfunction, not as a thendency. Because 29s and 27s have performed millions of tails slides, cobras and other high AOA maneuvers all over the world without any complaint from their engines. I'm not saying that western engines can't perform the same way, actualy I'm pretty sure they can and it is rediculous to say that this is the reason why western pilots don't do tail slides or cobras at airshows.

Just because one YF-22 almost crashed due to computer problem does that mean that it's FBW system sucks? Sh*t happens, the point is to find the thendency which causes it, making general conclusions from one in a million case is not very smart...;)

[Vekkinho]

What's so secret about it? It's in the net for 4-5 years. Besides, it concerns only the 9-12B export downgraded variant with R-27R1 and R-60MK.

 

But it proves my statement on 9-12B from post #1. This part:

 

- 9-12B that were sold to Russian "not so close" allies like Yugoslavia, Cuba, Iraq, Hungary had only R-60s for IR engagement, they missed Shlem (HMS) engagement mode and had "old" Tumanskii engines.

 

So if you draw any conclusions from these facts you'll notice that MiG-29A (Fulcrum A) that we're supposed to have in LO lacks R-27T in it's payload. That's the whole point of this thread. R-73 is present but there's no Alamo Bs.

 

Apart from that I believe that MiG-29C is quite good BVR fighter. It's small RCS and powerful missiles like R-77, R-27ET and R-27ER make it "shoot before they know you're there" aircraft. Small payload (missile quantity) doesn't reduce it's capabilities. Well placed missile can ruin one's day and it only takes one missile.

 

However, during dogfights in LO I have a feeling that MiG-29 is kinda undermodelled in terms of performance. I've seen a helluva lot videos of Fulcrum A and C performing BFM, evasive and dogfight tricks and I can surely say it turns and rolls much better than the one in LO. It might be my joystick profile/calibration setting where my joystick has shallow curve and dead-zone too big. Dunno!

 

In fact, MiG-29 (A,C,K,M,SMT) sure ain't angles but the energy fighter. It's got really good (if not best) Thrust / Weight ratio. For comparison go on-line and try 1on1 with F-15C or Su-27. You'll notice that you need no AB thrust to do same manuever that Eagles and Flankers do during dogfight. Your rate of climb and acceleration are much better with less thrust (@FullMil) when compared to your adversaries that need AB kicks too often. So I wouldn't call it short legged bird if you can make rational use of your energy potential.

 

MiG-29 is all about 3D manuevers not level turns and should be flown that way.

 

I saw latest Farnborough video from Smotr and I really got impressed by F/A-18E. Pilot made some really nice turns at critical speeds, defensive barrels and orthogonal rolls so when You guys talk of American policy of demo flights in public and forbbiden "not so safe" manuevers I'm glad it's finally bypassed. Appearance of such potent fighter changed that policy, don't you think?!

[Vekkinho]

BTW, the MiG-29 doesn't really out-strip its opponents in maneuverability until the fight starts getting to slow speeds. At that portion of the envelope, the only other comparable fighter is the F/A-18. At higher speeds the Viper does better (as well as the M2000 I think).

 

That's the whole point! Every dogfight gets low & slow in time.

 

The other problem is that all AI planes use same tactics and strategy. They always beam missiles to their starboard side, go for single circle fight in merge and level scissors during dogfights and fly all the planes the same way - scripted. Whether it's the Su-27 you're facing or Tu-22 he'll do the same breaks.

[RvETito]

So if you draw any conclusions from these facts you'll notice that MiG-29A (Fulcrum A) that we're supposed to have in LO lacks R-27T in it's payload. That's the whole point of this thread. R-73 is present but there's no Alamo Bs.

 

I'm a bit confused about the presence of R-27T in MiG-29's arsenal. Some sources say it's available for the non-export and some Warsaw pact export versions... The bulgarian MiGs are from the standart russian mid '80s version that features more potent radar, GCI data-link, R-27R with better seekers and R-73s, more A2G options including one tactical nuke etc... No word about the R-27T. This weapon has been intended for the Su-27 from the very begining, and it's very likely that even the mass of the Russian AF 9-12 are unable to use it. Eventualy, only the 9-13S could be considered as a launch platform of the R-27T.

 

Apart from that I believe that MiG-29C is quite good BVR fighter. It's small RCS and powerful missiles like R-77, R-27ET and R-27ER make it "shoot before they know you're there" aircraft. Small payload (missile quantity) doesn't reduce it's capabilities. Well placed missile can ruin one's day and it only takes one missile.

 

That's true. The opinion spread in this forum(and not only) is that the MiG-29 is absolutely blind and uncapable in BVR. From our days POV this statement could be considered as correct but it is based only on the evaluation of the downgraded export 9-12B variant, such as Serbian, German and Iraki Fulcrums. Does anyone here know that in the last 2 years at the 3rd Air Base Graf Ignatievo twice per year are coming F-15Cs from Oregon(from the latest upgrades) for training flights with Bugarian MiG-29s? Guess why there haven't been any news about these tactical exercises? This is the first time US pilots met in training combat standart 9-12A and they got pretty surprised by it's opponent both in BVR and WVR.

 

However, during dogfights in LO I have a feeling that MiG-29 is kinda undermodelled in terms of performance. I've seen a helluva lot videos of Fulcrum A and C performing BFM, evasive and dogfight tricks and I can surely say it turns and rolls much better than the one in LO. It might be my joystick profile/calibration setting where my joystick has shallow curve and dead-zone too big. Dunno!

 

I agree. The MiG is going at overcritical AOA pretty fast, roll rate also sucks. Only the acceleration seems correctly modelled.

[Pilotasso]

I agree with you: the Mig-29 is an awesome fighter, to my opinion also one of the most beautiful.

 

I think our opinion of the Mig-29A is not entirely honest. We keep comparing it with the updated F-16's and F-15's that defeated it on several but in fact limited occasions. But you can look at it from another point of view: when the Mig-29 was fielded, with HMS, R-60/R-73 and R-27T, the Belgian air force, e.g. flew F-16A lightweight interceptors with only 2 AIM-9N sidewinders (no, not the Lima indeed!) and NO ECM gear!

 

The germans flew the immortal F-4F with NO radar-guided missiles, only 4 sidewinders, for the most part of the eighties and till late in the nineties with outdated AIM-9J's. OK, they had at least ALQ-119.

 

The French flew Mirages (mostly F-1's) with obsolete missiles like R-550, and very dubious semi-active missiles.

 

OK, the F-16A was not a widow-maker in the same class as the Starfighter (who killed more Nato pilots than any enemy till today!) but the F-16's fell out of the sky at such a rate that a political scandal broke out in Belgium about this.

 

So, I really think the only problem of the Mig-29A is that we have put it in Lockon together with more evolved fighters.

 

Well said ! I realy think this is something to consider when reviewing the MiG-29A.

 

hmmmmm.........no.

 

Why?

well, F-16A had recieved sparrow capability since mid 80's, by the time the Mig-29 came to service. Russians knew the Migs radar was poor, but they thought west didnt.

My countries Block 15's retains AIM-7 capability to this day, but much like the US air force it was discarted from normal payload.

The reason was I suspect (based on coments I hear from AF personel here) that the basic APG-66 was too poor for real BVR engagements, that it got vulnerable to fire and forget IR missiles while it shot the sparrow dangerously close to IR range.

The mig had a similar problem even though the falcon had a better look down capability than the mig. The russians kept it probably for deterrence purposes. Reality is that no mig ever got one R-27 off against F-16's and that the falcon uded sidwinders while looking down efectively agains those migs.

 

Belgium crashes? since 1994 we had only one loss: Pilot error. Dunno what the belgium pilots donne to their planes o.O but ours are pretty reliable. They fly every day.

[tflash]

Currently there are no problems at all with Belgian F-16's, quite on the contrary. They got MLU upgrade, are night ops compliant, can use Lantirn/Sniper pod and carry Amraam, and are active in the Baltic and Afghanistan.

 

The fleet has dwindled from 150+ to far more realistic numbers (some 50).

But we are 2006. I'm talking of the period when they were introduced, when there were several mishaps (engine probs but also pilot error of course). Today, I think everyone will agree the F-16 was the best buy ever.

 

Just to say the reliable F-16 didn't come at once. I think reliable Mig-29's can come about, it is just a matter of updates and effort. I think the Polish, Hungarian and Indian Mig-29's to name a few are a real capability, with good maintenance and well-trained pilots.

 

But I agree with your analysis on the radar thing, and with what GG said: the real perceived threat came from R-73, not from R-27R capability.

[GGTharos]

That's true. The opinion spread in this forum(and not only) is that the MiG-29 is absolutely blind and uncapable in BVR. From our days POV this statement could be considered as correct but it is based only on the evaluation of the downgraded export 9-12B variant, such as Serbian, German and Iraki Fulcrums. Does anyone here know that in the last 2 years at the 3rd Air Base Graf Ignatievo twice per year are coming F-15Cs from Oregon(from the latest upgrades) for training flights with Bugarian MiG-29s? Guess why there haven't been any news about these tactical exercises? This is the first time US pilots met in training combat standart 9-12A and they got pretty surprised by it's opponent both in BVR and WVR.

 

I -very- seriously doubt that the MiG-29A did any sort of 'surprising' in BVR. Unless youw ant to believe it is somehow much better than a new F-16 in that area ... an F-15C will clobber the MiG-29 BVR just like it clobbers F-16's.

 

The F-16 and MiG-29 radars are (grossly) comparable in performance for BVR.

[MBot]

hmmmmm.........no.

 

Why?

well, F-16A had recieved sparrow capability since mid 80's, by the time the Mig-29 came to service.

 

I am no expert for F-16, but I think only the F-16 ADF form the US Air National Guard initaly had Sparrow capabilitys. I think during the cold war the aircraft of the ANG were the only BVR capable F-16 around. All other Falcons were armed with Sidewinders only and in the case of various european air forces only with rear-aspect versions.

[Pilotasso]

Ours are/were ADF's as well. ;)

[MBot]

Right, but aren't they ex-ANG ? My point is about the cold war, when the MiG-29A was introduced. I don't think Portugal ( or anyone else except the ANG ) had ADF's then.

 

 

And that is exactly the point of tflash's post. During the 80s the MiG-29A was one of the most competitive fighters over the european mainland ( excluding the F-15 and perhaps the Mirage 2000C ).

[Pilotasso]

I -very- seriously doubt that the MiG-29A did any sort of 'surprising' in BVR. Unless youw ant to believe it is somehow much better than a new F-16 in that area ... an F-15C will clobber the MiG-29 BVR just like it clobbers F-16's.

 

The F-16 and MiG-29 radars are (grossly) comparable in performance for BVR.

 

hmmmm hmmmmm hmmmmmmmm!

 

Hope your talking about F-16A's. Mig-29's were, but anything above APG-66V2 will have to be jammed. ;)

 

I had a debrief of a mission about F-16A's VS MLU mock combats. Not going much into specifics but the block 15's were complaining about their radars being jammed by other radars emmissions, while the MLU's were saying "always notching at 30 miles". They didnt tell me directly but MLU's were certainly getting the ADF's above 40 miles.

 

Of course F-15's do that at 80 or more, but you wont splat every falcon so easely. ;)

[Pilotasso]

Right, but aren't they ex-ANG ? My point is about the cold war, when the MiG-29A was introduced. I don't think Portugal ( or anyone else except the ANG ) had ADF's then.

 

 

And that is exactly the point of tflash's post. During the 80s the MiG-29A was one of the most competitive fighters over the european mainland ( excluding the F-15 and perhaps the Mirage 2000C ).

 

Peace Atlantis I consisted of newly built Block 15's ADF's (also called OCU) in 1994 over Block 50 structural cells. They were all virtualy identical to US ADF's except for Gyros Wide angle HUD and comms. They were also wired to carry an ALQ-131 pod under the wings (unique in the world).

 

Peace Atlantis II were all ex-US ANG block 15 ADF's. All of these are sparrow capable.

 

Currently MLU upgrades swiched over to the Peace atlantis I aircraft because they are easier to place all the cable work for the new weapons.

 

Currently we have 19 ADF's + 7 MLU's +14 Peace Atlantis II airframes wayting convertion (+4 more for spares).

by this years end there will be half MLU's half ADF's.

[MBot]

Ah ok, thanks for the heads-up.

 

So there weren't any F-16 ADF in europe until over 10 years after the MiG-29 went operational.

[Pilotasso]

In europe yes. But thats irrelevant. Without the Sparrow ours were pretty much on the same level as other F-16A's in europe.

[Vekkinho]

Without the Sparrow ours were pretty much on the same level as other F-16A's in europe.

ž

 

And that means no Sparrows, no AMRAAMs...just rear aspect Sidewinders. And what do we have in LO?! AIM-9X I suppose, with reduced range!

 

Russian MiG-29 had R-27R/T, R-73, R-60.

[Pilotasso]

ž

 

And that means no Sparrows, no AMRAAMs...just rear aspect Sidewinders. And what do we have in LO?! AIM-9X I suppose, with reduced range!

 

Russian MiG-29 had R-27R/T, R-73, R-60.

 

Ancient history. AMRAAM has been introduced on the upgraded F-16's for 2 years now. The other participants of the MLU had them in late 90's.

 

AIM-9 in Lomac is very very poor. Too poor infact, it cant reach any target. Why do you say its like an X?!!

[GGTharos]

If it was 'like an X' we could fire it 60 deg off bore and it would hit. It doesn't. It also wouldn't be decoyed by flares or Su-25T's IR jammer ... so it is *definitely* not 'like an X with reduced range'. It's more like an 'R-60 with slightly increased range'. It's a joke.

 

And, Pilotasso ... F-15's clobber F-16's in BVR. That's the basic truth in DACT wether you like it or not. It doesn't matter which radars they use ;) By the time they pick up the F-15's, the F-15's have already set up with tactical advantage.

[Pilotasso]

If it was 'like an X' we could fire it 60 deg off bore and it would hit. It doesn't. It also wouldn't be decoyed by flares or Su-25T's IR jammer ... so it is *definitely* not 'like an X with reduced range'. It's more like an 'R-60 with slightly increased range'. It's a joke.

 

Actualy AIM-9's eat up alot of flares IRL. They are know here as "comedores de flares": Flare eaters. They used to be resistant 15-20 years ago, but as simple as the flares concept apears to be, they did improve over the years, and made M's going for them. L's that are in europes arsenal are even worse, but then when you lanch them outside the oposing aircrafts view he can only guess when to start dumping flares.

 

This is why every body wants a replacement so badly, otherwise they would be kept in operation for many more years, because Off boresight shots are a treat, not exactly every days fighter pilots affair. ;)

[192nd_Erdem]

Oh man sure, everything Russian in LO is overpowered while everything Western is undermodelled.

 

Yeah. :happy:

[GGTharos]

Actualy AIM-9's eat up alot of flares IRL. They are know here as "comedores de flares": Flare eaters. They used to be resistant 15-20 years ago, but as simple as the flares concept apears to be, they did improve over the years, and made M's going for them. L's that are in europes arsenal are even worse, but then when you lanch them outside the oposing aircrafts view he can only guess when to start dumping flares.

 

This is why every body wants a replacement so badly, otherwise they would be kept in operation for many more years, because Off boresight shots are a treat, not exactly every days fighter pilots affair. ;)

 

Okay. Which part of this disagrees with what I wrote? ;)