M-2000C Update Discussion

[HDpilot]

 

1- Is it possible to perform a tail slide in the m2000??

 

 

Possible in the 2000-5 two seater

 

Its not possible in DCS.

After newest update we have basically the same result. :(

Very untypical for a delta wing...

Edited November 30, 2017 by HDpilot

[3rd Wing - Raiden]

thanks for the replies mate!!, hope someone can tell us about the warning panel lights.

 

Meanwhile, I would like to ask a couple more things:

 

1- Is it possible to perform a tail slide in the m2000?? I had never saw such a maneuver in a mirage 2000 before except in the video posted by =GoR-07=Vlad. After several attempts I couldn't manage to do it, just engine stops and the plane enters a flat spin (no matter if using FBW mode switch in Norm or vrill).

 

2- How do real pilots configure the plane to perform what I have always known as "crazy flight" maneuver?...look at video from 3:27 to 3:43:

 

 

When I try to perform this with FBW in norm, the plane is too "corseted" and "stiff" which makes the maneuver to look too unnatural and rough and with FBW in vrill roll is uncontrollable while the pitch still being too stiff...so I wonder if one must mess with FBW channels or something like that to be able to perform that maneuver with such a "fluid" look.

 

 

thanks!!

 

IIRC this maneuver was forbidden in the French Air Force shows because of the high risk of stalling the engin.

 

It is way over the flight envelope, so it may not be simulated well in DCS.

[SinusoidDelta]

thanks for the replies mate!!, hope someone can tell us about the warning panel lights.

 

Meanwhile, I would like to ask a couple more things:

 

1- Is it possible to perform a tail slide in the m2000?? I had never saw such a maneuver in a mirage 2000 before except in the video posted by =GoR-07=Vlad. After several attempts I couldn't manage to do it, just engine stops and the plane enters a flat spin (no matter if using FBW mode switch in Norm or vrill).

 

2- How do real pilots configure the plane to perform what I have always known as "crazy flight" maneuver?...look at video from 3:27 to 3:43:

 

 

When I try to perform this with FBW in norm, the plane is too "corseted" and "stiff" which makes the maneuver to look too unnatural and rough and with FBW in vrill roll is uncontrollable while the pitch still being too stiff...so I wonder if one must mess with FBW channels or something like that to be able to perform that maneuver with such a "fluid" look.

 

 

thanks!!

 

I tried the tail slide maneuver a few times after seeing that video. I figured 50% fuel and a magic on the outermost pylons might improve lateral stability / reduce the roll / spin departure modes.

 

I found retracting slats and temporarily flipping to EMERG FBW allowed me nose over faster though not as fast as it appears in the video.

 

The longer I let the jet tailslide before pushing over the more likely the engine would stall. I can definitely see what that maneuver would be prohibited.

Edited November 30, 2017 by SinusoidDelta

[Guest]

What is exactly the behaviour you are looking for? I did it yesterday and it seems to be able to pull it out

 

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[Guest]

I think something is wrong with the new FM in terms of trim and landing.

 

Just look at this track and let me know what you think.

 

I was with just one 530 on one side and landed on autopilot. Look what the AP trim did to my aircraft once I touched the ground...

trim bug m2000.trk

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

IIRC this maneuver was forbidden in the French Air Force shows because of the high risk of stalling the engin.

 

It is way over the flight envelope, so it may not be simulated well in DCS.

 

Yeah, looks like so.

 

I tried the tail slide maneuver a few times after seeing that video. I figured 50% fuel and a magic on the outermost pylons might improve lateral stability / reduce the roll / spin departure modes.

 

I found retracting slats and temporarily flipping to EMERG FBW allowed me nose over faster though not as fast as it appears in the video.

 

The longer I let the jet tailslide before pushing over the more likely the engine would stall. I can definitely see what that maneuver would be prohibited.

 

I can't manage to make the nose to drop down...it stays hanging up there no matter what I do and the engine stops. It feels very unnatural. Is the only thing so far I'm not liking in the FM.

 

I think something is wrong with the new FM in terms of trim and landing.

 

Just look at this track and let me know what you think.

 

I was with just one 530 on one side and landed on autopilot. Look what the AP trim did to my aircraft once I touched the ground...

 

Not sure whats wrong there mate...it looks like a hard landing going wrong.

[Guest]

Wow. Really? So the sudden right turn didnt call your attention?

 

:(

 

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[alganthe]

Disable AP before landing, use the AOA indicator (above the atitude indicator left of the HUD).

If you leave it on / standby it will trigger the take off warning light and blast in your ears if you have audio warnings turned on.

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

Wow. Really? So the sudden right turn didnt call your attention?

 

:(

 

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Sorry, missed it was using AP...I'm not familiarized with AP landings so can't be of help...however the right turn seems to happen once after touching ground so not sure if this is due to AP trim. Also, would be better if you could explain a bit what happened and what we should look at in the track.

[myHelljumper]

I think something is wrong with the new FM in terms of trim and landing.

 

Just look at this track and let me know what you think.

 

I was with just one 530 on one side and landed on autopilot. Look what the AP trim did to my aircraft once I touched the ground...

 

I can't watch the track so I don't know if you did it but the AP can't land the plane, it will do the approach but it should disconnect itself when below a radar altitude (can't remember if it's fixed or if it's the guard radar alt. IIRC default is 200ft).

 

If you did not disconnect the AP prior landing weird behavior is to be expected :D. Also, the AP can't disconnect itself if the radar altimeter is not powered.

[jojo]

I'm not sure the AP automatically disconnect at 200ft AGL, but it's sure you're not supposed to land with AP ON.

You should disconnect it no later than passing 200ft AGL.

[myHelljumper]

I'm not sure the AP automatically disconnect at 200ft AGL, but it's sure you're not supposed to land with AP ON.

You should disconnect it no later than passing 200ft AGL.

 

I think it did last time I checked, but I might be wrong :).

[jojo]

IIRC this maneuver was forbidden in the French Air Force shows because of the high risk of stalling the engin.

 

It is way over the flight envelope, so it may not be simulated well in DCS.

 

Yes, the maneuver is forbidden in FAF because engine stall risk and engine wear.

 

So if you see it in a video, it is probably performed by Dassault's test pilot to show the Mirage 2000 can sustain it anyway.

[Guest]

Hi all, I'll try to make this a separate post but for quickness will go ahead and do it here...

 

From multiple feedback including some with time on the aircraft the design of how the aircraft flies is a bit different from how it was in previous version of DCS. Unfortunately rough data was available on the behavior and estimates were made incorrectly and with that many of you have gained a "muscle memory" for how it should be controlled.

 

Lets talk about the low speed behavior. From feedback the aircraft should be more "AOA" controlled in low speed. Previously it was heavily pitch rate controlled. Now it is more like the FBW is providing a fake positive stability feedback so that your intuition of control is like that of flying a Cessna or something. You can trim out the necessity for constant stick offset just like in a Cessna but you have one thing better, the Autopilot. As you increase speed through around 275 KCAS the airframe transitions to G-load guided flight.

 

What the autopilot does is get you on a guided flight path. So when you engage it, it automatically trims the aircraft for the path you are at when you engaged it or what it needs to be at for the given mode (Alt Hold for example). The beauty of how it works now (and didn't work before) is that when you disengage the autopilot either by turning off or going into standby, the aircraft maintains the trims the autopilot put it in. The idea behind this is that for most phases of flight you have AP engaged trimming things out for you, while you use off or standby to maneuver yourself to where you need to be.

 

At the end of the day the behavior should be not to fly like a computer but to have a computer that lets the aircraft still feel like a normal aircraft (just with great maneuverability).

 

Trim can be reset by pushing the FBW reset button.

 

I do have some issues on hand that I need to list out that I am aware of and will working on for future updates.

 

Let me know if you guys have other questions on it.

 

Hi Cpt Smiley!! Did you have the time to write a more detailed guide of the new FM?

 

 

Also, I noticed that the aircraft IS actually trimming ALL the time, at least in pitch. Regardless of AP (again, in pitch only).

 

If you fly at 400kts leveled and then put the throttle in idle you will see how the pitch trim indicators change in order to keep the aircraft leveled.

 

But I thought this behaviour was not in the real plane. Was it? This doesnt happen all the time, for example while refueling.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Piston85

[jojo]

There is no pitch trim indicator, there is an elevons (wing's control surfaces) position indicator.

 

At 400kt the plane is trimmed for some amounts of G force. So if you cut the throttle, the FBW will try to keep the same amount of G force.

Edited December 3, 2017 by jojo

[Guest]

There is no pitch trim indicator, there is an elevons (wing's control surfaces) indicator.

 

At 400kt the plane is trimmed for some amounts of G force. So if you cut the throttle, the FBW will try to keep the same amount of G force.

the trim indicators show both elevons which act as trimmers

 

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[Guest]

So the manual says they are trim indicators

 

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[jojo]

There are 4 elevons (2 by wings), and the indicator is a position indicator.

 

A trim indicator doesn't move in real time with each stick input...

[Guest]

There are 4 elevons (2 by wings), and the indicator is a position indicator.

 

A trim indicator doesn't move in real time with each stick input...

Huh?

 

The mirage doesnt have trims per se. Just moving surfaces that act like that (not 100% sure though). And why a trim would not move in real time? Also, a trim does not relate to stick movement. Trims are little surfaces that move in the oposite direction of a main surface in order to keep that surface in the place you want.

 

All of this has nothing to do with my initial comment for zeus.

 

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[myHelljumper]

Huh?

 

The mirage doesnt have trims per se. Just moving surfaces that act like that (not 100% sure though). And why a trim would not move in real time? Also, a trim does not relate to stick movement. Trims are little surfaces that move in the oposite direction of a main surface in order to keep that surface in the place you want.

 

All of this has nothing to do with my initial comment for zeus.

 

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A trim indicator wouldn't move when you move the stick, the elevon indicator you are talking about does. Then it can't be a trim indicator.

 

This indicator is moving because above 300kts the plane try to maintain 1G and it need to move the control surfaces in order to do that.

[jojo]

Hi Cpt Smiley!! Did you have the time to write a more detailed guide of the new FM?

 

 

Also, I noticed that the aircraft IS actually trimming ALL the time, at least in pitch. Regardless of AP (again, in pitch only).

 

If you fly at 400kts leveled and then put the throttle in idle you will see how the pitch trim indicators change in order to keep the aircraft leveled.

 

But I thought this behaviour was not in the real plane. Was it? This doesnt happen all the time, for example while refueling.

 

That's what I answered it isn't a trim indicator, but control surfaces position indicator.

Since it's a FBW system, the control surfaces may move even without stick input.

 

1-tableau de positions des gouvernes

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

JoJo is right, there are no trims indicators but control surfaces position indicators which, as he said, might move even when there is no stick input...this is easily noticeable when flying low with high turbulence for instance.

[Guest]

JoJo is right, there are no trims indicators but control surfaces position indicators which, as he said, might move even when there is no stick input...this is easily noticeable when flying low with high turbulence for instance.

 

That's what I said, no trims but control surfaces that act as trims...

 

For the sake of my initial question it doesnt matter, we are still talking about fbw trimming actions, no matter if they are on a trim itself or a surface acting as a trim.

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

That's what I said, no trims but control surfaces that act as trims...

 

For the sake of my initial question it doesnt matter, we are still talking about fbw trimming actions, no matter if they are on a trim itself or a surface acting as a trim.

 

Well, I think what you are calling "trim" is not actually trim but the own FBW system doing its job...guess you can call it "trim" if you want but could lead to confusion.

[Guest]

Well, I think what you are calling "trim" is not actually trim but the own FBW system doing its job...guess you can call it "trim" if you want but could lead to confusion.

 

Exactly, thats why everybody call it trim :) (manual, Zeus, etc.)

 

The trim hat is not a trim but a command that sets the elevons in set positions. But we still call it trim ;)

 

Thats not the point anyway.

 

But I understand now that the fbw does its job while on G Load flight. Under 275 kcas it stops doing it.

 

 

Thanks.