OT: New Chinese Su-27 - J11B

[Kusch]

China are now producing J-11B with a variety of indigenous equipment. It is equipped with WS-10A turbofans, a wide angle holographic HUD, new KLJ series radar, Su-30MKK style IRST, and a glass cockpit. It can be armed with PL-12 and PL-8 AAMs.

 

 

 

[tflash]

One thing is for sure: the South-Asian arms race is ON.

[Maverick-90]

lol that looks like they LOPE'd the Payload to use AIM-7 xD

[GGTharos]

No, that's their AIM-120 knock-off :)

[britgliderpilot]

No, that's their AIM-120 knock-off :)

 

You sure they have an AMRAAM copy?

 

I know they've got a Sparrow copy (that would seem to fit for size on that photo) . . . but I've not heard of a Chinese AMRAAM, thought they went straight for the RVV-AE.

[GGTharos]

No, I don't think that's their Sparrow ... this is more in line with an AMRAAM, though the forward fins are larger than on the A ... I believe this one is tail-steered, like AMRAAM, and it is also ARH - it is the SD-10, IIRC.

The R-77 already needs to be replaced - I wouldn't say it is obsolete, but right now it is certainly not the best weapon out there ... just the only ARH that you cannot buy from ISRAEL or US, and I'm pretty sure that France isn't interested in selling MICA yet.

[D-Scythe]

Actually, Taiwan got their MICAs before even the French did. It's an expensive missile, hence the lack of customers, but Taiwan wasn't willing to wait for the U.S. to decide whether to sell them AMRAAMs or not in case they piss off China.

[Starlight]

Actually, Taiwan got their MICAs before even the French did. It's an expensive missile, hence the lack of customers, but Taiwan wasn't willing to wait for the U.S. to decide whether to sell them AMRAAMs or not in case they piss off China.

 

Taiwan has a good AirForce, well equipped, but I think China could invade it in just one afternoon... even if they traded their Su-27s for Mig-17s...

 

Anyway, if it happened there would be serious political consequences, a dramatic escalation, that is why they haven't invaded it yet.

And that's why the USA always keep carrier battlegroups in the proximity. Just to say "the world is watching you...."

Deterrence is the word, like during Cold War... with some mishaps, like that EP-3 some time ago ;)

[Starlight]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2006-12/29/xinsrc_3721203291503734789518.jpg

 

Chinese pilots with those helmets with the red star look like the bad guys in old action movies like "Iron Eagle" :D LOL

 

anyway if they're skilled, with fighters like this they could be really tough...

[Pilotasso]

Taiwan has a good AirForce, well equipped, but I think China could invade it in just one afternoon... even if they traded their Su-27s for Mig-17s...

 

Anyway, if it happened there would be serious political consequences, a dramatic escalation, that is why they haven't invaded it yet.

And that's why the USA always keep carrier battlegroups in the proximity. Just to say "the world is watching you...."

Deterrence is the word, like during Cold War... with some mishaps, like that EP-3 some time ago ;)

 

 

 

No, Taiwan can take a big bite off the chinas massive numbers. It would depend how bad the chinese would be willing to take casualties in order to take all the islands aircraft, if at all.

 

China may have the biggest guns but Taiwain has smarter and more advanced guns.

[Starlight]

It is a Python 3, the Chinese license build them.

 

The Chinese can at best add some features to the Flanker, but as the Russians did not provide them with the source code, they can't do much.

 

The Chinese are able to reverse-engineer everything from toilet paper to the Space Shuttle... everything... just give'em something and after 5 minutes they are producing a clone.

 

Some time ago Italy lent some Aspide AAMs (Italian licensed and improved Sparrow) to China. I don't know if NATO agreed very much, anyway it happened... Well they evaluated it and then rejected the proposal. After some months a Sparrow copy appeared hanging below Chinese fighters' wings ;)

[Starlight]

No, Taiwan can take a big bite off the chinas massive numbers. It would depend how bad the chinese would be willing to take casualties in order to take all the islands aircraft, if at all.

 

China may have the biggest guns but Taiwain has smarter and more advanced guns.

 

It's the old NATO quote... quality vs quantity... but here with Su-27, improved Su-27, J-10 and other things like that... well, man... quality is on both sides! ;)

 

Taiwan what does fly? F-16C, Mirage-2000 and maybe that indigenous fighter aircraft.... did they buy also F-18s?

Anyway I'll stick with my opinion, one afternoon and it's all gone, if they wanted.

 

You could notice it because when trying to download the latest drivers from http://downloads.yourmotherboardproducer.com.tw you could be redirected to the home page of the Chinese People Army website ;)

[Pilotasso]

The Chinese are able to reverse-engineer everything from toilet paper to the Space Shuttle... everything... just give'em something and after 5 minutes they are producing a clone.

 

 

Not everything. They cant make modern military turbofans. The chinese caused some turmoil trying to get the know how by stealing it by espionage.

 

An F-16 engine was ALMOST smuggled out of taiwan along with other hardware but the contact for the theft was caught in time.

 

Equaly they have been unable to copy the Lavi but to give the J-10 some serious compromises.

[D-Scythe]

Taiwan has a good AirForce, well equipped, but I think China could invade it in just one afternoon... even if they traded their Su-27s for Mig-17s...

 

I don't agree - especially the invasion part. They have to cross a sea to get to Taiwan - it's impossible to miss to build up for the invasion, let alone the actual invasion. And keep in mind the RoCAF is fully equipped with AMRAAMs, MICAs and indigenous active radar AAMs (Sky Sword 2 or something....)

 

It's the old NATO quote... quality vs quantity... but here with Su-27, improved Su-27, J-10 and other things like that... well, man... quality is on both sides!

 

The Su-27s that China has aren't really that great. They don't compare to the Su-27SM at all.

[Pilotasso]

worse than that, they dont have proven BVR missiles. They may find out that their PK is much lower than the AMRAAM and MICA wich personaly I believe is the case.

[Starlight]

Not everything. They cant make modern military turbofans. The chinese caused some turmoil trying to get the know how by stealing it by espionage.

 

An F-16 engine was ALMOST smuggled out of taiwan along with other hardware but the contact for the theft was caught in time.

 

Equaly they have been unable to copy the Lavi but to give the J-10 some serious compromises.

 

I'm not very convinced by these reasons.

They look very similar to those that there were many years ago, when there was still the Iron Curtain. At that time in the West most of the people thought that the Warsaw Pact coutries were flying telephone poles or beer cans with wings.

Later we found that they had a lot of advanced fighters with advanced weapons and avionics. Not alien hardware, not perfect hardware, but very good hardware indeed... Also NATO hardware was far from being perfect. We surely had better average training, that was all.

 

Here the situation is different, we have an aviation which has grown to incredible numbers, with very good frontline fighters. I don't know the skill level of their pilots, but if it was good, the world could be afraid...

[FVMAD]

China has an active missile with R-77 seeker and almost AIM-7 body. (they named it S-10 IIRC)

 

Edit: ah SD-10 is their name of R-77, that was PL-12 what I ment

[Starlight]

I don't agree - especially the invasion part. They have to cross a sea to get to Taiwan - it's impossible to miss to build up for the invasion, let alone the actual invasion. And keep in mind the RoCAF is fully equipped with AMRAAMs, MICAs and indigenous active radar AAMs (Sky Sword 2 or something....)

 

They train for invasion once a week I think and that channel is very short to cross. China has also huge stocks of standoff ASMs, don't know if they work, but if I was a fleet commander and I saw a hundred "vampires" in my radar screen I'd rather take a defensive position ;)

 

They both have BVR missiles, maybe Taiwanese AAMs are better (quad-core tech? :D )

 

The Su-27s that China has aren't really that great. They don't compare to the Su-27SM at all.

 

ok, does Taiwan have SM?

I think even vanilla Su-27s could easily match the F-16C, just IMHO.

[GGTharos]

Actually no, it wouldn't. The F-16C is far better advanced in the radar and ECM areas.

[D-Scythe]

They train for invasion once a week I think and that channel is very short to cross. China has also huge stocks of standoff ASMs, don't know if they work, but if I was a fleet commander and I saw a hundred "vampires" in my radar screen I'd rather take a defensive position ;)

 

And what if you're in a supersonic F-16 loaded with JSOWs and HARMs? You gonna let those boats land on your country *without* taking a few in the teeth?

 

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if they train for an invasion every day. The fact is that a transocean invasion is an extremely dangerous operation and heavy casualties are expected even when air and sea supremacy is secured.

 

And on top of that, you think China can win control of the skies and the sea within one afternoon? Even the Allies in Desert Storm, Allied Force and the Freedoms didn't manage it over Iraq, Serbia or Afghanistan, and the capability over-match was *huge*.

 

Like it or not, simply dominating another, *entire* country in one afternoon is just not a realistic military operation.

 

ok, does Taiwan have SM?

I think even vanilla Su-27s could easily match the F-16C, just IMHO.

 

An F-16 bristling with AMRAAMs backed up by Mirage 2000-9s bristling with MICA AR/IR AAMs all supported by AWACs, indigenous fighters and Standard/Patriot SAMs? In a single afternoon?

[Pilotasso]

The air movments would be too big for one side to take every aircraft of the other in 1 day. It would require a record breaking number of dogfights, likes of WWII.

[Dudikoff]

You are presuming that they would be able to mount their aircraft operations normally which I doubt would be the case. Taiwan is far enough from China to make invasion troop movements rather costly, but it's too close for air attacks and has no strategic depth. All the Chinese have to do is stage a massive surprise attack and, accepting even some high initial losses, target the Taiwan's military airbases' strips (how many do they have, anyway?). Unless the Taiwanese have organised to use their highways for air operations, all their advanced airplanes wouldn't have anywhere to take off from. Of course, the Chinese would have benefited greatly from having some aircraft in the Wild Weasel role (maybe Su-27SMs with Kh-31s?). I don't know where do they stand in that regard.

[Force_Feedback]

What about the engines? In what way are they better, and which engines do they copy (al-31, al-31f, al-31F mod 3/4)?

 

I would say the Pl-10/12 whatever (I know how it looks, rest assured) is a copy of the aim-120, with larger REAR fins, which leads to a guesstimate of better meneuvrability then the aim-120C/D. It's range is however lower than that of the R-77.

 

Also, China needs to be able to say 'look hard working citizens, we have the brains and resources to create our 'own' weapons', and to be less dependant on Russia/Israel for spare parts. It's a good thing that they actually develop something on their own, or at least, for the biggest part, now a change of goverment, and the world economy will crash down sooo damn hard.

[Starlight]

well, the shortest path from China to Taiwan is about 70 nm.

that is:

less than 2 hours for a fast assault boat

about 6 minutes for a fighter aircraft

about 15 minutes for transport aircraft

about 3 to 4 hours for a full assault fleet

 

And that is the reason why Taiwan has such defensese... like for Israel, "early warning" has a very particular meaning here... the potential enemy can knock at your door in a matter of minutes...

 

The only things I see stopping such operations are:

- mounting an invasion takes some time, and preparing a fleet for an invasion is not exactly something easy to conceal

- the world would literally pour to help Taiwan, so that would become China Vs Rest of the World

- I don't see any strong reasons why today China would invade Taiwan (ok, apart from historical/political reasons, Taiwan being considered a rebel province by central gov... but they all look more like "casus belli", real wars are usually waged for economic reasons)

 

Anyway, if they successfully managed a blitz attack, I don't see the world replying with anything else than embargoes.

After all:

- A lot of invasions happened with some rouses that worked at least to allow surprise effect. And in many cases the "victims" were actively monitoring their enemy.... just look at Normandy 1944 or Suez 1973...

- China doesn't have a free mass-media base within that could impact on operations... that is, quite little care of battlefield losses

- China outnumbers Taiwan by far, and not with obsolete hardware (and anyway there are tons of "case histories" of quantity winning over quality, just think about Shermans Vs Tigers in WW2)

- When talkin about serious ops, we shouldn't just judge things using AAM parameters... there are crazy variables in war that are very difficult to predict... in case of invasion I wouldn't be surprised to see a part of the Taiwanese forces "handicapped" by some sabotage actions.

 

anyway, I think we're going a bit OT.... I just wanted to say that IMHO today China has a really powerful war machine...

 

but I'm not gonna pump warmongers up, just peace and love, folks!

[TucksonSonny]

well, the shortest path from China to Taiwan is about 70 nm.

that is:

less than 2 hours for a fast assault boat

about 6 minutes for a fighter aircraft

about 15 minutes for transport aircraft

about 3 to 4 hours for a full assault fleet

 

 

Going even further OT: If I was president of China I would…

 

From a tactical perspective the best China could do is wait for the next major conflict.

Suppose that the next battle field (hypothetical speaking) would be Iran.

With this move they could open a new battle field in Taiwan and as a result a (western) coalition would need to move assets to this new location (Iran is the major oil supplier for China).

 

Anyway this would be a frightening scenario for some cartoon book like Buck Danny :D , but I don’t see it happen (Having all these nuclear powers involved).