Mirage radar CONSTANTLY losing lock on low flying targets!!!

[jojo]

It works on the ground : DBS (with resolution around 0.3m)

But it needs to "paint" the target for some time.

 

Let's say it can be done (one day) for identification, but not usable for detection.

Edited December 20, 2017 by jojo

[Bacab]

It works on the ground : DBS (with resolution around 0.3m)

But it needs to "paint" the target for some time.

 

Let's say it can be done (one day) for identification, but not usable for detection.

DBS, SAR,... work fine on the ground where you only have to account for your movement. In order to do that on a moving target it's something completely different.

[spugnut]

The

 radar_can_see_ground      = true, -- this should be examined (what is this exactly?) 

quote was not written by me but by somebody at ED. :D

It is a very old comment.

 

:D the one thing I've learned through that brief foray is that DCS is made up of lots of interlocking code ayers, some dating right back to LockOn. I take it then that much of the lua code you start with when coding up a module is boilerplate from ED? I'll refrain from asking any more, despite fascination or we'll pull this OT.

[jojo]

:D the one thing I've learned through that brief foray is that DCS is made up of lots of interlocking code ayers, some dating right back to LockOn.

 

Maybe dating back from Flanker 2.0, who knows ? :D

[Dagger71]

This is not what the pictures are showing.

 

He is shooting on targets who are defending = beaming and forcing him in look down.

In the first picture you may have 5 degrees off, but surely not in the picture where the lock is broken.

 

I don't mean to "patronize" anyone, yes there are some bugs, but loosing lock isn't always a bug. The target is working hard to achieve it.

 

You have to master Fox 1 BVR tactics:

- crank

- beam (and how to counter it)

 

Sorry, the best video I know on the topic is in French, but the video speak by itself.

You will see in it the beam maneuver on F-15 radar screen in look up and look down (1'28" : "bas" = down/ "Haut" = up). Off course, for the tutorial it's again AI, you will have to be more agressive in MP. But the principle remains: shoot then go & stay below your target. When the target beams: press.

 

F-15C with AIM-7M Vs Su 27 R-27ER.

I absolutely agree with everything you have explained so far. BUT that is not what we are discussing. Evading missiles using crank notch or pump is not what we are discussing.

 

In the video the SU27 never lost lock, the F15 successfully trashed a tracking missile .

 

What Conroy and most people are complaining about is how the RDI looses lock so easily even over water NOT how enemy evades the missiles.

 

This all happens most of the time before weapon is even launched. We're talking about very close target between 2.5 and 10 degrees under nose. This did not happen before, at the rate and at such a shallow differential. As stated before I can sometimes even visually spot a target before the RDI displays the contact (much more often then before and we are talking multiple targets above below and same alt)

 

I have definitively changed tactics over the past week or so, where I will always dive lower than a target to maintain lock, but again the RDI sometimes decides even the sky is clutter and will momentarily loose lock.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Dagger71

[westr]

The PRF button is worth mapping I find it helps when notching occurs. In my opinion it varies with the aircraft type you are engaging as well.

[jojo]

I absolutely agree with everything you have explained so far. BUT that is not what we are discussing. Evading missiles using crank notch or pump is not what we are discussing.

 

In the video the SU27 never lost lock, the F15 successfully trashed a tracking missile .

 

What Conroy and most people are complaining about is how the RDI looses lock so easily even over water NOT how enemy evades the missiles.

 

This all happens most of the time before weapon is even launched. We're talking about very close target between 2.5 and 10 degrees under nose. This did not happen before, at the rate and at such a shallow differential. As stated before I can sometimes even visually spot a target before the RDI displays the contact (much more often then before and we are talking multiple targets above below and same alt)

 

I have definitively changed tactics over the past week or so, where I will always dive lower than a target to maintain lock, but again the RDI sometimes decides even the sky is clutter and will momentarily loose lock.

 

The thing to see in the video is that the F-15C doesn't loose the lock when the Su 27 try to beam because he is already well below.

Off course the Su 27 is AI and beam later than human player would do.

 

There are good chances that DCS doesn't make smooth transition between look up and look down. So maybe 2° below horizon is already look down for DCS World.

 

There is the question of the range factor for beam effectiveness.

In Faclon 4 there is % of radar range under which the beam isn't effective anymore.

Maybe we don't have that in DCS = a beam is a beam no matter the range.

(Conroy sceenshot at 2.1Nm makes me think that).

 

Zeus67 may confirm or not. But I haven't seen any post about work on AA radar for a very long time.

And I haven't notice any difference in behavior.

 

Usually, if I see a target, I switch to close combat mode to lock in the HUD, I don't mess head down on the radar screen.

The closer you are from the target, the narrower radar pencil is, especially vertically.

 

Complains about radar not locking or loosing lock happen regularly. But:

1- we never have a track or even a tacview record to check the radar setting and aircraft positions. If you don't provide a track, nobody knows where to start the search for the bug. In any flight sim the devs require a track to if you declare a bug.

2- more often than not, the guy doesn't seem aware about the beaming defensive tactic or why a radar would loose lock against beaming target.

 

So I think it does worth the effort to explain the point. I can't know the background and knowledge of everyone posting. Maybe some of the thing I said were unnecessary for you. But maybe it will help some people. We all had to start one day.

I didn't know all that 15 years back. But people who want to play this game have to understand some of this.

 

Finally IRL, over the water (sea/ ocean) can be a challenging environment for radar, which necessitate specific algorithm to deal with sea clutter.

For instance you have more sea clutter with the wind head on.

But I would be surprised if DCS World make any difference between over the land or over the water and simulate sea state effect on clutter, surface duct effect and so on...

[jojo]

The PRF button is worth mapping I find it helps when notching occurs. In my opinion it varies with the aircraft type you are engaging as well.

 

Yes and no.

When you are guiding Fox 1 missiles you are in HFR mode.

[Dagger71]

Ok made a quick mission unlimited ammo enemy 0 weapons. So this video isn't showing what we are really talking about (RDI loosing radar contact at close range) But look what happens.

 

first pair of 29s at 15000 less than 30nm out cold. My radar does not pick them up until the su27s which are over 20 nm beyond the Mig 29s get picked up!

 

7.8 NM before the RDI will pick up the M29s!

 

 

Not picking up radar contacts when you know where they are (on MP We fly in groups so we usually know exactly where and what alt the enemy is at), is even just as frustrating if not more then loosing lock just before or right after firing. )

 

 

Sorry about the jumpiness in the cockpit. my TrackIR was messed up a bit.

rdi.trk

Edited December 21, 2017 by Dagger71

[jojo]

Ok made a quick mission unlimited ammo enemy 0 weapons. So this video isn't showing what we are really talking about (RDI loosing radar contact at close range) But look what happens.

 

first pair of 29s at 15000 less than 30nm out cold. My radar does not pick them up until the su27s which are over 20 nm beyond the Mig 29s get picked up!

 

7.8 NM before the RDI will pick up the M29s!

 

 

Not picking up radar contacts when you know where they are (on MP We fly in groups so we usually know exactly where and what alt the enemy is at), is even just as frustrating if not more then loosing lock just before or right after firing. )

 

 

Sorry about the jumpiness in the cockpit. my TrackIR was messed up a bit.

 

Please what version of DCS did you use ?

[Dagger71]

Please what version of DCS did you use ?

1.58

[myHelljumper]

Cold contacts are picked up way later than hot contacts.

 

You will also have side lobe filtering if they are flying roughly at the same speed as you.

[Dagger71]

Cold contacts are picked up way later than hot contacts.

 

You will also have side lobe filtering if they are flying roughly at the same speed as you.

 

 

so max detecting range of the RDI for a cold contact is around 8nm?

[jojo]

2 things:

- Su 27 have higher RCS

- In your test the Su 27 are "hot" while MiG 29 are "cold".

 

I tried and I picked up the cold MiG 29 in HFR around 15Nm (strangely BFR doesn't seem to help here, but the MiG 29 were slow and I was fast), the Su 27 at more than 40Nm.

 

I did the test with F-15 (new mission)

In "HI" PRF I still don't cold MiG 29 at 15Nm, I have to switch to "MED" to detect them.

 

So it isn't Razbam fault, this is DCS World effect of PRF VS aspect angle.

 

In my mind it's excessive, but we'll have to find hard evidence to move those lines.

 

(in the track I mess around with PRF selection between HI and MED, sometimes I'm confused because of interleaved mode which display alternatively HI and MED)

APG-63 TEST.trk

Edited December 21, 2017 by jojo

[jojo]

The tracks with RDI in HFR and BFR.

The strange thing is that the detection range on the cold MiG 29 is exactly the same.

 

(I just used Dagger's track and took the control)

RDI BFR.trk

RDI HFR.trk

[Dagger71]

2 things:

- Su 27 have higher RCS

- In your test the Su 27 are "hot" while MiG 29 are "cold".

 

I tried and I picked up the cold MiG 29 in HFR around 15Nm (strangely BFR doesn't seem to help here, but the MiG 29 were slow and I was fast), the Su 27 at more than 40Nm.

 

I did the test with F-15 (new mission)

In "HI" PRF I still don't cold MiG 29 at 15Nm, I have to switch to "MED" to detect them.

 

So it isn't Razbam fault, this is DCS World effect of PRF VS aspect angle.

 

In my mind it's excessive, but we'll have to find hard evidence to move those lines.

 

(in the track I mess around with PRF selection between HI and MED, sometimes I'm confused because of interleaved mode which display alternatively HI and MED)

 

 

I was using HFR as well. not sure how you got 15nms.

 

I rarely switch between HFR ENT and BFR because I see no difference in its application as modeled currently. I will switch between 4-2-1 and 60 30 15 if I am not too target fixated. Otherwise I switch between BHA BH2 and Vert special modes to lock until splash, but even there I almost exclusively use BHA

[jojo]

you have the track in my previous message.

 

But what is interesting is that the F-15 doesn't do better in the same conditions.

[Jugdriver]

I was using HFR as well. not sure how you got 15nms.

 

I rarely switch between HFR ENT and BFR because I see no difference in its application as modeled currently. I will switch between 4-2-1 and 60 30 15 if I am not too target fixated. Otherwise I switch between BHA BH2 and Vert special modes to lock until splash, but even there I almost exclusively use BHA

 

Do you see any difference between 4-2-1 and 60, 30 15 with the radar? I have the opposite experience, I see no difference with changing the lines or the 60, 30, 15 scan when it comes to picking up contacts.

 

Where if I am in a closer fight with an opponent that is below me and has notched successfully I will switch to ENT and can pick them back up on the radar more often than not.

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

Edited December 21, 2017 by Jugdriver

[D4n]

It seems solved with todays patch to me, barely losing lock anymore. Seemed to be caused by multiplayer lag/warping.

[D4n]

Here again, even close up, this is terrible... (starting shortly after 4:12, impressive high alpha earlier in the video btw)

[jojo]

What I see in this video is expected behavior.

Your targets are beaming you, you're loosing lock with target's aspect <100.

 

And you keep shooting in look down without cranking. This is only good defensive maneuvers from your targets, good job from them.

 

Maybe Mirage is loosing lock a little too fast, but in the end, with F-15C + AIM-7M or Su-27 + R-27R/ER you would loose lock too.

[D4n]

You mean when distance between me and my locked bandit barely changes, my radar will have trouble identifying the bandit as an enemy aircraft instead of a non moving object on the ground? I don't think Thales manufactured such a bad Doppler radar.

[jojo]

You mean when distance between me and my locked bandit barely changes, my radar will have trouble identifying the bandit as an enemy aircraft instead of a non moving object on the ground? I don't think Thales manufactured such a bad Doppler radar.

 

It isn't that Thomson CSF (back then) did a bad radar, it's the limitation of doppler effect.

 

Do yourself a favor, try the F-15C + AIM-7. I did

A beaming maneuver will break the lock. The target's echo will blend into the ground clutter.

It works against Fox 3 missiles too, it works in "the-other-sim-we-are-not-allowed-to-talk-about" too.

 

There are plenty of tutorials on YouTube.

 

Shooting isn't the end of it, if you want to kill you have to work to keep the target above the horizon.

[D4n]

Huh I thought all of that (ground clutter, me-target line of sight related to horizon) is not modeled in DCS? Have you tried F-15 AIM-7 in multiplayer too? I am sure it behaves different there (will have to try )

[jojo]

 

The dude is doing just like you, F-15, AIM-7, MP...same result.

The F-15 has the flood mode to partially go around this problem.