Air combat tactic

[Owl]

Hello!

 

My question is not specific to the Mirage, but in general to modern fighters. What is your tactic to begin with, before the real dogfight begins. I have read a lot of tactics and air maneuvers in the dogfights, but miss the preliminary maneuvers just before that.

 

To be a little more specific. Let's say you are flying in a scramble mission, you are flying directly against your enemy, nose to nose. You can see him on your radar, let's say 20-30 miles away. Your enemy can also see you, on his radar, so you don't have an advantage there. What is your next turn?

[razo+r]

The way you described your situation reminded me very much of this video here:

 

[Xenovia]

Fire one off the rail as soon as possible, make him go defensive first, if he doesn't budge, fire another one, by now you're probably right outside or maybe inside the NEZ for BVR where the missiles will have a higher probability to kill, well you better have your chaff and flare keys ready to go, because they probably evaded your missiles at this point, and he's probably turning back onto your nose, you might have a higher chance of shooting another missile off when he's trying to turn in, forcing him to stay defensive, and if he's smart he'll break off entirely and try re-engaging at another angle. OR he could have fired at the same time you fired your first initial missile, so both of you would have to go defensive, and things can get a bit tricky, and i'm still trying to figure that part out myself.

[Owl]

Fire one off the rail as soon as possible, make him go defensive first, if he doesn't budge, fire another one, by now you're probably right outside or maybe inside the NEZ for BVR where the missiles will have a higher probability to kill, well you better have your chaff and flare keys ready to go, because they probably evaded your missiles at this point, and he's probably turning back onto your nose, you might have a higher chance of shooting another missile off when he's trying to turn in, forcing him to stay defensive, and if he's smart he'll break off entirely and try re-engaging at another angle. OR he could have fired at the same time you fired your first initial missile, so both of you would have to go defensive, and things can get a bit tricky, and i'm still trying to figure that part out myself.

 

Xenovia isn't your advice a little bit risky. You are using 3 missiles even before you are entering the real dogfight. The Mirage only carry 4 A-A missiles, so you enter the close dogfight with only one left. But any way, thanks for your advice :-)

[Owl]

The way you described your situation reminded me very much of this video here:

 

 

Thanks for your advice, Raxo+r. A long video you have found there:). I haven't found time to see much from it. One day, I wll take a cup of coffee and se it. Thank you, any way.

[Owl]

No body else to give advices in how to prepare and entering a dogfight?

 

I have flown a lot of hours in the A-10C and the helicoptors in DCS, with good succes. Flown many hours in the MIG-21 as well, but haven't had much succes in what it is used to, interceptions. Not because I'm hopeless, but I am begun thinking, how to entering the dogfight and the preparation the best way.

[jojo]

No body else to give advices in how to prepare and entering a dogfight?

 

I have flown a lot of hours in the A-10C and the helicoptors in DCS, with good succes. Flown many hours in the MIG-21 as well, but haven't had much succes in what it is used to, interceptions. Not because I'm hopeless, but I am begun thinking, how to entering the dogfight and the preparation the best way.

 

You have some medium range missiles (Matra Super 530D) with the M-2000C.

You don't have the longest range, it's Fox 1, but it's quite fast.

You should learn how to avoid others medium range missiles (crank/ beam/ pump), optimal chaff use, and how to support their guidance (crank/ F-Pole maneuver).

 

You can train Vs AI, not as smart as human players, but the missiles are the same.

You can test enemy missiles dangerous range at different altitude, and learn to support your missile while avoiding incoming missiles.

 

Defense Vs radar guided missiles (Fox 1/ Fox 3) isn't exactly the same (beam + chaffs) as defense against IR guided missiles (head on + engine management + flare).

Edited January 17, 2018 by jojo

[Jester986]

As jojo said you tube notching and the F pole maneuver. The basics are from medium range fly at the enemy with him at the very edge of keeping a radar lock to your left or right. If he fires a missile at you from max range pull through to the opposite extreme edge of radar lock and as he crosses your nose fire a missile. His missile now has to turn to chase you and waste energy while he is likely keeping his nose on you flying directly at your missile. Yours will hit first and his will lose lock assuming they are both semi active radar. If his is an active radar you'll have to pump chaff and run. Radars work on the Doppler effect so if you are moving at a 90 degree angle to the radar your neither going towards or away from it and it cant pick you out from ground clutter and he will lose lock. This only works as long as you are not silhouetted against the sky though so you have to be below the horizon relative to the position of the radar. Also you can extend the maximum range of your missiles by being above your target because of an assist from gravity however you lose the ability to notch. But a shot from 30k feet at a target at 5k feet will go much farther than one from 5k at 5k.But if you search f pole and notching on you tube you'll find some good dcs specific videos.

[Jester986]

@Xenovia I think that may help you as well because what you described sounds like how people fall victim to the F pole.

[jojo]

If he fires a missile at you from max range pull through to the opposite extreme edge of radar lock and as he crosses your nose fire a missile. His missile now has to turn to chase you and waste energy while he is likely keeping his nose on you flying directly at your missile. Yours will hit first and his will lose lock assuming they are both semi active radar. If his is an active radar you'll have to pump chaff and run. Radars work on the Doppler effect so if you are moving at a 90 degree angle to the radar your neither going towards or away from it and it cant pick you out from ground clutter and he will lose lock.

 

In fact you can exhaust a medium/ long range Fox 3 shot the same way.

Crank in one direction at expected Fox 3 firing range. When the Fox 3 goes active (M on the RWR) reverse the turn. The missile who was leading ahead of you in one direction is unlikely to make it the other way if you keep your speed (>M0.9).

And if you manage to be in range to shoot your Fox 1 during the reversal all the better. At least he will break off, or will eat your incoming missile.

 

Beam and chaff can also work against Fox 3 if you are below the shooter (survival).

 

The problem with the beam or pump starts when you want to recommit.

[Jester986]

Thanks jojo, I didn't know if it would work with the fox 3's because I know the 120 has a significantly longer range but the server I play on has them banned so I don't get to mess with them much.

[jojo]

Well, try in SP Vs AI to work your timing before going live on MP :D

[myHelljumper]

Thanks jojo, I didn't know if it would work with the fox 3's because I know the 120 has a significantly longer range but the server I play on has them banned so I don't get to mess with them much.

 

From my experience the longer range is not that significant but it's still something to take into account.

[Owl]

As jojo said you tube notching and the F pole maneuver. The basics are from medium range fly at the enemy with him at the very edge of keeping a radar lock to your left or right. If he fires a missile at you from max range pull through to the opposite extreme edge of radar lock and as he crosses your nose fire a missile. His missile now has to turn to chase you and waste energy while he is likely keeping his nose on you flying directly at your missile. Yours will hit first and his will lose lock assuming they are both semi active radar. If his is an active radar you'll have to pump chaff and run. Radars work on the Doppler effect so if you are moving at a 90 degree angle to the radar your neither going towards or away from it and it cant pick you out from ground clutter and he will lose lock. This only works as long as you are not silhouetted against the sky though so you have to be below the horizon relative to the position of the radar. Also you can extend the maximum range of your missiles by being above your target because of an assist from gravity however you lose the ability to notch. But a shot from 30k feet at a target at 5k feet will go much farther than one from 5k at 5k.But if you search f pole and notching on you tube you'll find some good dcs specific videos.

 

Thank you, guys:). F Line and Notching was excactly what I was looking for. Now I have a better understanding how to enter a dogfight.

[Xenovia]

@Xenovia I think that may help you as well because what you described sounds like how people fall victim to the F pole.

 

But i already know to to F-pole/Notch. Granted I'm not the best at it, but i'm able to do it.