MK-20 Rockeye tactics/techniques IRL

[johnv2pt0]

Anybody know if the behavior of having to aim ahead of a stationary target with the rockeye in CCIP is accurate to the real weapon?

 

2nd question, are there any specific techniques for gauging the correct aim off distance?

[Dangerman]

From my experience as a RAF ground attack pilot (not gr7/9) the CCIP would normally be artificially placed at the centre of the weapons footprint. So dropping 3 bombs has the CCIP at the calculated impact point of the 2nd bomb. Dropping a stick of 4 has it between the 2nd and 3rd. etc etc.

 

I don’t know which height sensor the GR7/9 or AV8B uses, but incorrect height from the height sensor is the normal reason that a real CCIP doesn’t indicate correctly and you miss the DMPI despite a good pickle as the CCIP passes the target. The Height sensor is needed to complete the triangle of calculations for range to target for the depiction of CCIP. if the target is at a different height to the aircraft at point of release and system is using Radalt, the CCIP picture is bollox and the weapons will miss. Other height sensors are available. In my time it was radalt (as discussed above), BARO/IN, (INS height filtered with barometric to give a best system guess using a passive method), AGR (air to ground ranging on radar. Where radar looked a split second ahead of CCIP to get a direct range solution) or laser (best of all but regulations limited its use in peacetime if not dropping on a laser LOA at a weapons range due not being eyesafe).

 

Forward firing sensors are always the best as you get a more accurate calculation since the range is based on the hypotenuse and doesn’t care what height AGL you are, just the height above the target plane is important.

 

In relation to DCS, I don’t know if the sim is complex enough to look at height sensors in the targeting solution. Don’t know which height sensor is active for any given drop and Also don’t know what error is causing a misplaced CCIP... but there is a bit of background for you as to the causes in a real ground attack aircraft.

 

NB. Accurate height reference is essential for ALL unguided munition delivery to have accurate sighting calculations or accurate CCRP calculations

[munckmb]

@Dangerman, thanks for the insight! Really appreciate it!

[johnv2pt0]

Thanks Dangerman for all that info. It seems that since the CCIP cross gives accurate results with other munitions (however Razbam is calculating that slant ranging) that it's most likely an issue with the game's Mk-20 and not the modeling of the av-8 and thus something ED will need to address at some point. I want to say I have read Razbam talking about all these CCIP calculations somewhere in a development thread too.

 

Good to know! For now it's Kentucky windage for me ...

[Dangerman]

Another system you could use is TLAR (That Looks About Right).. very similar to Kentucky Windage I believe.

[Harry.R]

I placed my bets on the JPs that used TLAR during the Batemans bomb competition, it always seemed to work out well ;)

[QuiGon]

From my experience as a RAF ground attack pilot (not gr7/9) the CCIP would normally be artificially placed at the centre of the weapons footprint. So dropping 3 bombs has the CCIP at the calculated impact point of the 2nd bomb. Dropping a stick of 4 has it between the 2nd and 3rd. etc etc.

 

I don’t know which height sensor the GR7/9 or AV8B uses, but incorrect height from the height sensor is the normal reason that a real CCIP doesn’t indicate correctly and you miss the DMPI despite a good pickle as the CCIP passes the target. The Height sensor is needed to complete the triangle of calculations for range to target for the depiction of CCIP. if the target is at a different height to the aircraft at point of release and system is using Radalt, the CCIP picture is bollox and the weapons will miss. Other height sensors are available. In my time it was radalt (as discussed above), BARO/IN, (INS height filtered with barometric to give a best system guess using a passive method), AGR (air to ground ranging on radar. Where radar looked a split second ahead of CCIP to get a direct range solution) or laser (best of all but regulations limited its use in peacetime if not dropping on a laser LOA at a weapons range due not being eyesafe).

 

Forward firing sensors are always the best as you get a more accurate calculation since the range is based on the hypotenuse and doesn’t care what height AGL you are, just the height above the target plane is important.

 

In relation to DCS, I don’t know if the sim is complex enough to look at height sensors in the targeting solution. Don’t know which height sensor is active for any given drop and Also don’t know what error is causing a misplaced CCIP... but there is a bit of background for you as to the causes in a real ground attack aircraft.

 

NB. Accurate height reference is essential for ALL unguided munition delivery to have accurate sighting calculations or accurate CCRP calculations

 

As far as I understand the AN/ASB-19 Angle Rate Bombing System of the Harrier is pretty unique as that it doesn't get height data from usal sources like RADALT, Laser ranging, radar ranging, baro pressure, INS or GPS, but from the angel to the target.

 

More info in this video:

 

 

And also in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196709

[whiteladder]

Dangerman,

 

 

When where you flying Harriers? You probably flew over my house.

[lemoen]

Dangerman,

 

 

When where you flying Harriers? You probably flew over my house.

 

Dangerman was a Tornado pilot if I'm not mistaken.

[Mumby]

Thanks for your input Dangerman, great to hear from someone who has really been there.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[moespeeds]

What's the deal with Rockeyes? I could swear when I was in the Marines in the 90s they were dropped on tanks. In DCS they don't seem to be effective against anything but the lightest APCs and such?

[Shrike88]

+1 ED please start ticket and fix damage model for MK-20 submunitions and burst area

[Frederf]

It should be remembered that Mark 118 bombers are very small and it is probably a requirement for hit to kill on an MBT type target. Geometrically the footprint area divided by the bomblet count (247) is the roughly the size of a target that may be expected to receive one bomblet hit.

 

For a footprint diameter of 100m the area is 7850m^2. T-55 tank is about 7.5m^2. 7850/247 is 31.8m^2 per bomblet. Thus a hit on such a tank is roughly 7.5/31.8=23.6% likelihood.

 

From this type of math the desire to drop multiple weapons with small overlapping patterns can be appreciated.

[Spudknocker]

As far as I understand the AN/ASB-19 Angle Rate Bombing System of the Harrier is pretty unique as that it doesn't get height data from usal sources like RADALT, Laser ranging, radar ranging, baro pressure, INS or GPS, but from the angel to the target.

 

More info in this video:

 

 

And also in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196709

 

Man an A-4M would be cool in DCS World!

[moespeeds]

I tested some out yesterday and dropped them on a line of tanks, trucks, and APCs. Looked at the data in TacView and they scored tons of hits, no kills. Not even on the trucks.

[Shrike88]

Thanks for your input Dangerman, great to hear from someone who has really been there.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Agree, needs a damage model rework. Let's hope this gets resolved the next hotfix.

[Sniper175]

Yup same here it needs a damage model fix asap. Whats the point of a combat simulator if the combat is deficient in its modeling.....

[Manzanita]

+1 on damage rework. They currently do BARELY any cluster damage.