RVV-AE Tips

[FlankerMan]

Hello, everyone! I have FC3, and I sometimes fly the MiG-29S, and I was wondering if there is anything special I should be doing to have the RVV-AE missile perform better. It's pretty good at short-range engagements, but is there something I can do to increase its launch range, and increase the probability of it hitting? Thanks in advance!

[Slutcher]

Launch the missile at high altitude and with as much speed as possible to increase the kinematical range.

Prior to launching, aim the target with a lead angle. This will allow for the missile to fly a relatively straight path and conserve energy.

The R-77 is an active missile but it still need to be supported till pitbull range. As the Migs dont have a countdown timer you will have to estimate it yourself.

Besides, it is advised to use the R-77 within 20km as otherwise the missile is unlikely to have sufficent energy if the target is maneuvering.

[FlankerMan]

Okay, thanks! I do try to launch at a high altitude, but probably not high enough, and I probably don't launch it with enough speed, though I'm usually at a pretty straight angle. Um, what's pitbull? And is there a good way to tell when that is? I usually keep the target locked the entire length of flight, like the R-27R/ER, anyways.

[razo+r]

Pitbull is used when the missile activates its own radar and at that point, you can turn around or solid track another one.

 

AIM 120 goes about 5miles from target Pitbull, don't know about the R-77

[Ironhand]

Okay, thanks! I do try to launch at a high altitude, but probably not high enough, and I probably don't launch it with enough speed, though I'm usually at a pretty straight angle. Um, what's pitbull? And is there a good way to tell when that is? I usually keep the target locked the entire length of flight, like the R-27R/ER, anyways.

They start tracking on their own at roughly 17km. But the truth of the matter is, unless your target is already maneuvering violently and spewing countermeasures, when you launch, they are pretty much fire-and-forget. As long as there are no countermeasures involved, you can launch and turn off your radar even against a target that maneuvers a bit during the encounter.

[Alfa]

Pitbull is used when the missile activates its own radar and at that point, you can turn around or solid track another one.

 

AIM 120 goes about 5miles from target Pitbull, don't know about the R-77

 

The seekerhead of the R-77(9B-1348 ) has a published acquisition range of some 16 km against a target of RCS=5m2, so if the "Pitbull" range Ironhand mentioned is as observed in the sim, then its pretty much bang on the money.

[Ironhand]

The seekerhead of the R-77(9B-1348 ) has a published acquisition range of some 16 km against a target of RCS=5m2, so if the "Pitbull" range Ironhand mentioned is as observed in the sim, then its pretty much bang on the money.

Observed in sim against tanker-sized aircraft.

 

EDIT: Track attached.

R-77 Maneuvering.trk

Edited January 10, 2018 by Ironhand

[Alfa]

Observed in sim against tanker-sized aircraft.

 

OK - then the range should probably be a little better(given the large RCS of such a target) :)

[FlankerMan]

Thank you for all the replies, but is there a mental countdown that can be done until the missile goes pitbull?

[GGTharos]

Rule of thumb (ie. it applies to many but not all situations), 2sec/nm head-on (1sec/km), 3sec/nm (1.5sec/km) beam, 4sec/nm (2sec/km) tail-on shot.

[Frostie]

As GG says, head on example you launch at 30km give 30seconds to impact, not accurate but easy conversion.

[turkeydriver]

Lobbing used to be critical in long range engagements. AIM-54 and AIM-120C have it built in. You don't want to shoot for the stars when your target is in the weeds but you can lob the missile and extend its range by launching it near limits of the radar scan. I don't know what the vertical scan movement limits are on the MiG-29 radar, but if your target is dead on- then do a gentle pull and release the missile 10-15 degrees above your target. Keep in mind this is best used for pure intercepts against non-maneuvering targets. Long-range shots against fighters who know you are there are little more than an annoyance. A simple break is sometimes all you need to destroy the radar lock before Pitbull, and by the time you are tracked again, the missile doesn't have the range after adjusting to the new intercept angle. Modern missiles and radars have logic and software to mitigate this as much as possible, just don't know about the Russian side of things.

[FlankerMan]

Okay, thanks for all the tips. I guess my current plan of action is to launch at a significantly higher altitude and speed (emphasis on altitude, and only as much more as I can actually manage) than my target, and to keep it locked the entire length of missile flight, even if I have to turn away to avoid a missile (which may result in losing lock, but at least it still has a chance of hitting). One more thing: how do I engage two targets at once?

[*Rage*]

Okay, thanks for all the tips. I guess my current plan of action is to launch at a significantly higher altitude and speed (emphasis on altitude, and only as much more as I can actually manage) than my target, and to keep it locked the entire length of missile flight, even if I have to turn away to avoid a missile (which may result in losing lock, but at least it still has a chance of hitting). One more thing: how do I engage two targets at once?

 

As it stands in game speed is more important than altitude in extending your missiles range. Of course having both is better. But the emphasis on speed. You only need to keep it locked till pitbull. With the new INS in the last patch this helps as well if you need to turn away prematurely.

 

With regards to engaging 2 bandits, you need a wingman!

Edited January 13, 2018 by ///Rage

[PeaceSells]

With regards to engaging 2 bandits, you need a wingman!

 

You can launch two R-77 simultaneously at two different targets using the radar TWS2 mode (track while scan 2). I just don't remember the exact procedure, but I remember it was simple.

[*Rage*]

I seem to recall it doesnt work properly. Also R77 has very short range. Getting that close to 2 (competent) bandits will get you killed.

[Frostie]

TWS2 works but is a very poor in comparison to the F-15s TWS, locking is a process of waiting for auto acquisitions to occur (not as quick or efficient as designating with a TD) then if the target is jamming the lock drops and TWS resets back to normal scan mode, even at burn through.

After all that you don't get the benefit of TWS not giving launch warnings, a lock or launch in TWS2 alerts the target in the same way an STT lock does.

TWS2 can have its uses but is basically more trouble than it is worth.

[FlankerMan]

Okay, I think I've got it. So, speed is actually a touch more important than altitude? One more thing: is it possible, in the MiG-29S, to tell how many chaff/flares are left?

[FlankerMan]

How come the R-77 is so short-ranged? And, how come it's not as good as the AMRAAM? One last thing: I have a book that says the R-77 can go 80km, when the in-game encyclopedia says 50km, and the actual range is more like 25km. Why all the difference?

[Robin_Hood]

There are a lot of ways to measure missile maximum range, that will give vastly different distances. This is why a simple statement of missile range without more information is pretty much useless. You can measure different things, and from different launch configurations.

 

(for example, Wikipedia gives 57 NM range for the AIM-120C ; I wouldn't advise you to shoot at a target that far in DCS !)

Edited January 14, 2018 by Robin_Hood

[FlankerMan]

Okay, I think I've got it! I've been able to make several kills, some of them BVR, with the RVV-AE. Again, is there a way to tell how many chaff and flares I have left in the MiG-29S?

[Alfa]

Okay, I think I've got it! I've been able to make several kills, some of them BVR, with the RVV-AE. Again, is there a way to tell how many chaff and flares I have left in the MiG-29S?

 

On the real aircraft there is a counter on the front panel(see attachement), but I don't know if this is currently working in the sim.

[esb77]

How come the R-77 is so short-ranged? And, how come it's not as good as the AMRAAM? One last thing: I have a book that says the R-77 can go 80km, when the in-game encyclopedia says 50km, and the actual range is more like 25km. Why all the difference?

 

Range = distance listed in a book or on a wiki

 

is not a valid equation.

 

Range = mathematical expression incorporating: launch velocity, target velocity, difference in gravitational potential energy, atmospheric conditions etc.

 

Change any of the variables in the real equation for range and the resulting range changes.

 

Let's take an example:

 

Say you're flying at about 7500 m, and there's a target that's an F-15. You're at a nice 220 m/s, but what effect does the target's velocity have?

 

Say it's a foolish person that's been closing on you at max afterburner for quite a while trying to get above Mach 2, so they're adding about 500 m/s to the effective speed of your missile.

 

If your missile is in the air for 10 seconds, 500 m/s * 10 s = 5 km of effective range.

 

Supposing you can launch early enough so that the missile can fly 30 seconds, in that case the 500 m/s gives you 15 km worth of effective range.

 

 

Now take that target and turn it around so that it's flying away from you. Now the relative speed it's contributing to your missile is - 280 m/s.

 

Over 10 seconds that's 2.8 km less range, over 30 seconds that's 8.4 km less range.

 

 

So compared to the first scenario, there's up to a 23.4 km difference in effective range, just based on what direction the target is flying.

 

 

There is no single range. Range depends on a bunch of variables.

 

 

When looking at wikis or books the range figure is often the manufacture's listed figure, which is often a number optimized for selling as many missiles as possible.

 

Ranges at which missiles can hit in realistic situations are normally drastically shorter.

[FlankerMan]

A couple quick questions:

 

1-Would carrying 6 RVV-AEs, instead of 2 R-73s and 4 R-77s, be an okay loadout? Y'now, to get more bandits at BVR?

 

2-Is trying to engage 2 targets, as long as they're not competent fighters (like, say, UAVs, bombers, attack aircraft) be worth it?

[Ironhand]

A couple quick questions:

 

1-Would carrying 6 RVV-AEs, instead of 2 R-73s and 4 R-77s, be an okay loadout? Y'now, to get more bandits at BVR?...

:) Sure, if you can load them... As long as you never let a BVR fight transition into a close-range knife fight. Otherwise you'll wish you had those two R-73s.