Comments from an Eagle pilot

[S77th-GOYA]

Round two.

[GGTharos]

He said: “It has trouble doing Mach speeds” ;)

 

If the F-15C was porked and the Su-27 was OK like he said

then something was not correct because both planes perform about equal in Lomac/FC!

 

Ok. The complaint I'm familiar with is that the engine isn't producing enough thrust at altitude at transonic/below mach speeds.

[Rhen]

What about if we stay in a relatively protracted high-g engagement of between 2-5min? Not a constant 9G, but often above 4 or 5. These happen often in LO.

 

Here's our average mission. We take off in a 4-ship, we go to the area, we split up into elements, go to our respective corners, then duke it out. We do this 2-3 times. We go to the tanker. We gas up, and do it some more. Then go home. If a lousy 2-5 minutes of variable g (high & low) kicked our butts, then I need to get a job in the Ops Group pushing papers.

 

That's not to say that I'm not tired after that profile. We land, talk about who did what to whom and whether we did it right or not, we look at the tapes, we grab some water to rehydrate. I kept a bottle of water in my leg pocket - especially in the summer months - to drink inflight. When I come down from that sortie, I look at the bottom of my arms and have "g-measles" or the medical term petechiae from burst capillaries in the skin that look like freckles. The survival vest digs into my shoulders and I've got a few strawberry marks from that. In the summer my flight suit is soaked with perspiration. Hell, we even joke that we're 1/2 inch shorter from vertebral disk compression. But gray or black out during the sortie? NEVER! (Ok, well there was this time...) I've grayed a bit - but that's after 20 days of leave being a regular guy and pulling 1g at the beach, and going into an ORI having to demonstrate my ability to fly the jet in chem warfare gear in the summer when it's 98oF and the humidity's the same. Not on the first sortie, but on the second after simulated hot pit and rearm. I could wring the sweat out of my socks after that mission.

 

Heck, ask any T-38 student on a contact profile. Split-S, cloverleaf, Sliceback, nose low recovery, bat turns in the pattern. These all require G at or in excess of 5. If every damn student in UPT had the G tolerance of a LOMAC fighterpilot, there'd be smoking holes all over Texas, Mississippi, and Oklahoma. Let's not even talk about every F-16, F-15, F-22, A-10 base out there.

[Mizzy]

He hasn't posted anything new on the UBI forums either. His last post was on Monday.

 

Looks like our so called F15 pilot guy was talking BS, and I don't mean Black Shark ;)

 

Mizzy

[TucksonSonny]

Ok. The complaint I'm familiar with is that the engine isn't producing enough thrust at altitude at transonic/below mach speeds.

 

The only problem I have with the original quote is the ridicule exaggeration:

He said “flew one of the Russian jets(SU-27) and it handled the way (I would assume have never flown one)it should and out performed the F-15 in the way an F-16 would outperform a Cessna”

In all honesty do these graphs looks like they were done for a Cessna?

 

I don’t think so ;)

 

[Rhen]

Oh yeah, you can show me these too, but there's something wrong with the F-15 and it's ability to sustain G. Either the drag numbers are off, the engines drop too much thrust with altitude, or some other approximation's been made that limits it's ability to turn or accelerate. What I want to see is what ED is basing these charts on. If you have no familiarity with the dash 1, you can easily interpret the charts incorrectly. Secondly, the high AOA flight model is porked. This has been talked about with regards to the fulcrum, but it's also true of the Eagle. The roll rate should be higher when the jet's unloaded. The roll rate should be sluggish to nil at max angle of attack, the rudders should be highly effective in this regime. The approach AOA in the F-15 is 22units. It's around 7-9 units in LOMAC. We're not stalling at 22 units (why do you think the bug's on 22 in LOMAC? It's because it's approach AOA not CLmax, oh btw, it should be "T" shaped not triangular).

 

Look you don't usually get complaints like this from me because I'm interested in "MODERN AIR COMBAT." Now I'm gonna disappoint some people, but I don't give a squat about switches or programming the INS or whatever. What I care about happens in the air between aircraft. It's the radar, the missiles, and the ability to properly employ the aircraft using "real world" tactics. I like BFM & wish the Eagle was fixed in this regard as well, but I can still fight with what i'm given, just not as good as the real thing. But BVR and to a lesser extent WVR is way off.

[TucksonSonny]

Oh yeah, you can show me these too, but there's something wrong with the F-15 and it's ability to sustain G. Either the drag numbers are off, the engines drop too much thrust with altitude, or some other approximation's been made that limits it's ability to turn or accelerate. What I want to see is what ED is basing these charts on. If you have no familiarity with the dash 1, you can easily interpret the charts incorrectly. Secondly, the high AOA flight model is porked. This has been talked about with regards to the fulcrum, but it's also true of the Eagle. The roll rate should be higher when the jet's unloaded. The roll rate should be sluggish to nil at max angle of attack, the rudders should be highly effective in this regime. The approach AOA in the F-15 is 22units. It's around 7-9 units in LOMAC. We're not stalling at 22 units (why do you think the bug's on 22 in LOMAC? It's because it's approach AOA not CLmax, oh btw, it should be "T" shaped not triangular).

 

Look you don't usually get complaints like this from me because I'm interested in "MODERN AIR COMBAT." Now I'm gonna disappoint some people, but I don't give a squat about switches or programming the INS or whatever. What I care about happens in the air between aircraft. It's the radar, the missiles, and the ability to properly employ the aircraft using "real world" tactics. I like BFM & wish the Eagle was fixed in this regard as well, but I can still fight with what i'm given, just not as good as the real thing. But BVR and to a lesser extent WVR is way off.

 

Don’t get me wrong: We and ED needs people like you to improve the simulation!

But it must be without speaking slightingly of…

 

BTW, I have also spend weeks with reading comments made by Mav-Jp and the Raptor guy (developers of HFFM for falcon) discussing

about how porked the AOA flight model was for the F-16 Blocks versus the Mig-29 in Falcon SP3/4 /BMS/ Cobra etc. on frugals ;)

[fretwear]

Well I posted this in hopes that Noidskie was the real deal and would show up and help us out. So much for that I guess...:censored: it.

[leafer]

Also I don't think G-lock or black-outs should be modeled according to some pilots statements that they can do 8G's no problem or so because, I think, not all pilots actually can do this...

 

Actually, I proposed to ED a long time ago to have characteristic options included in all their sims so we can experience Gs like realistically.

 

You must put a check mark in one of these before each flight:

 

1. 185 pound of chit hot pilot, 9 Gs is nothing.

2. I'm just a 4 eye nerd who loves flight sim, I pass out at exactly 1.01 G.

3. I love Mickey D's and probably won't fit inside the cockpit anywayz.

4. I'm gay and I am NOT getting in that...that atrosity until I give it a makeover!

[leafer]

If every damn student in UPT had the G tolerance of a LOMAC fighterpilot, there'd be smoking holes all over Texas, Mississippi, and Oklahoma.

 

And Uttaradit, Thailand.

 

Waita minute... Hey! He's making funny of us, y'all! Let's jump him!

 

:D

[Spins321]

Hey yall,

Man I got into this thread late. I think most of you guys already realized the F15 dood is fake. I'm stationed with a real F15 unit in the NE US (i'm not a pilot), and have been working around fighters of different types (majority of time in the Marines) and have developed a bit of "common sense" about them.

 

So I'll just point out the glaringly obvious things:

 

1. He refers to afterburners as "Military 2". Usually people say "Gate" (which he did use once), Zone (on the navy/marine side typically), or just say full burner. There is no "Military 2"

 

2. "Also, hoggies Flip fire (Spin upside down, acquire target, rite it, fire it)."

I think he wants to say "Pop-up" maneuver here, which if he really had flown Echos at some point, he would be very familiar with the term.

And I've never heard a pilot refer to a roll to inverted flight maneuver to "spin upside down", or roll to wings level as "rite it". Typical pilots, even civvies, tend to try to be as descriptive as possible using correct terms.

 

3. This one made me LoL:

"I have flown D and E model Eagles in the Gulf and we used to say Slow and Low that is the tempo(Beastie Boys reference)".

I don't know why he continuously tried to associate F15D (albinos) to F15Es (Echos), but they are completley, and I mean as far as you can get from each other, different aircraft.

Deltas were in the Gulf during Shield, Storm, and OIF1. They were and are only flown for training, and local familiarization (get a new incoming pilot familiar with the surrounding area, or refamiliarization). On extremely rare occasions, they'll fly a combat sortie (one in which they know the plane won't encounter any threats), but typically with a member of the media, or some other kind of special purposed person in the back. Deltas are never used for low level training. He never stated it, although I think he was trying to imply that they are, Delta birds (albinos) are not assigned to Echo squads.

Finally.. Low and slow? Not if you want to die quick and fast... That has never been doctrine for any tactical aircraft in a combat environment. Infact, in ODS1, it was EXTREMELY rare for Echos to ingress targets on the deck. the deck during ODS1 was 12-15000 feet, dependingon aircraft. The brits operated low level with tornados, but after their abysmal early losses, they kicked that up quick. There were some low level sorties, but not many at all.

 

4. This one made me ROFLMA, and pretty much clinched it:

"Ummmm....Cluster bombs??? No self respecting flight commander would waste an E to fly CBUs(Not that it never happens but not often). Sending an E to drop a CBU is like Sending Jet Li to take out Charlie Brown; Effective for sure but a real waste of resources.

 

I have flown several hundred sorties in an E and have only had CBUs pinned twice. Typically you would use a combination of either GBU 10-24 and Mark 82 83 or 84s, along with A2A defense. Of course mission dictates and you may carry specialized munitions CBUs, BLUs, Mines, Incendiary, C,B,N, Cruise Missles, and even ASAT munitions. Of course now days they also carry JDAMs but that was after I left the excavators and became a seat rider."

 

I think he intended to out himself with this, and was waiting for someone to call him out on it, cause it is so nutty. The CBU comment is just stupid. So i won't address that one. The Echo does not carry any manner of cruise missile, although testing has been done on systems like Tacit Rainbow. And the biggest, most glaring... ASAT= Anti-Satellite. This had NEVER been an Echo mission. Infact there were only a total of like 8 ooooold Albino airframes that had ever been modified to carry out the mission, before it was scrapped like in the late 80s.

 

And finally, he made a comment about the Echo being maneuverable enough to make the C look bad. Although this is TRUE of an Echo WITHOUT CFTs on (which you will never, ever see in combat), primarily because the Echos CG is further back, making it more unstable pitchwise, this is not something that is even really considerable because echos never operate without CFTs. With CFTs on, the echo is a pig. Pitch rate is good, but no where near the turning prowess of a Charlie, and neither the Charlie nor the Echo have it on the Alpha.

 

Anywho, sorry for the rant. I just hate liars.

[pschelchshorn]

Hey yall,

Man I got into this thread late. I think most of you guys already realized the F15 dood is fake. I'm stationed with a real F15 unit in the NE US (i'm not a pilot), and have been working around fighters of different types (majority of time in the Marines) and have developed a bit of "common sense" about them.

 

So I'll just point out the glaringly obvious things:

 

1. He refers to afterburners as "Military 2". Usually people say "Gate" (which he did use once), Zone (on the navy/marine side typically), or just say full burner. There is no "Military 2"

 

2. "Also, hoggies Flip fire (Spin upside down, acquire target, rite it, fire it)."

I think he wants to say "Pop-up" maneuver here, which if he really had flown Echos at some point, he would be very familiar with the term.

And I've never heard a pilot refer to a roll to inverted flight maneuver to "spin upside down", or roll to wings level as "rite it". Typical pilots, even civvies, tend to try to be as descriptive as possible using correct terms.

 

3. This one made me LoL:

"I have flown D and E model Eagles in the Gulf and we used to say Slow and Low that is the tempo(Beastie Boys reference)".

I don't know why he continuously tried to associate F15D (albinos) to F15Es (Echos), but they are completley, and I mean as far as you can get from each other, different aircraft.

Deltas were in the Gulf during Shield, Storm, and OIF1. They were and are only flown for training, and local familiarization (get a new incoming pilot familiar with the surrounding area, or refamiliarization). On extremely rare occasions, they'll fly a combat sortie (one in which they know the plane won't encounter any threats), but typically with a member of the media, or some other kind of special purposed person in the back. Deltas are never used for low level training. He never stated it, although I think he was trying to imply that they are, Delta birds (albinos) are not assigned to Echo squads.

Finally.. Low and slow? Not if you want to die quick and fast... That has never been doctrine for any tactical aircraft in a combat environment. Infact, in ODS1, it was EXTREMELY rare for Echos to ingress targets on the deck. the deck during ODS1 was 12-15000 feet, dependingon aircraft. The brits operated low level with tornados, but after their abysmal early losses, they kicked that up quick. There were some low level sorties, but not many at all.

 

4. This one made me ROFLMA, and pretty much clinched it:

"Ummmm....Cluster bombs??? No self respecting flight commander would waste an E to fly CBUs(Not that it never happens but not often). Sending an E to drop a CBU is like Sending Jet Li to take out Charlie Brown; Effective for sure but a real waste of resources.

 

I have flown several hundred sorties in an E and have only had CBUs pinned twice. Typically you would use a combination of either GBU 10-24 and Mark 82 83 or 84s, along with A2A defense. Of course mission dictates and you may carry specialized munitions CBUs, BLUs, Mines, Incendiary, C,B,N, Cruise Missles, and even ASAT munitions. Of course now days they also carry JDAMs but that was after I left the excavators and became a seat rider."

 

I think he intended to out himself with this, and was waiting for someone to call him out on it, cause it is so nutty. The CBU comment is just stupid. So i won't address that one. The Echo does not carry any manner of cruise missile, although testing has been done on systems like Tacit Rainbow. And the biggest, most glaring... ASAT= Anti-Satellite. This had NEVER been an Echo mission. Infact there were only a total of like 8 ooooold Albino airframes that had ever been modified to carry out the mission, before it was scrapped like in the late 80s.

 

And finally, he made a comment about the Echo being maneuverable enough to make the C look bad. Although this is TRUE of an Echo WITHOUT CFTs on (which you will never, ever see in combat), primarily because the Echos CG is further back, making it more unstable pitchwise, this is not something that is even really considerable because echos never operate without CFTs. With CFTs on, the echo is a pig. Pitch rate is good, but no where near the turning prowess of a Charlie, and neither the Charlie nor the Echo have it on the Alpha.

 

Anywho, sorry for the rant. I just hate liars.

 

hehe! Well reminds me of a guy called Sandman from the...well shall i say it (moderators can delete: he is in the 504th TFW -> Falcon 4.0 ) that tried to convince me that he is a 17 year old Super Hornet driver and has flown in the Operation Iraqi Freedom.When i asked what mission he had to undertake he said only cap because if he would have gotten shot down it would have gotten into legal issues due to his age ROFL. He was referring to be in the Blue Blasters Attack Squadron, but they dont even fly SUPER HORNETS, they fly the C. Nowadays he calls himself a marine sniper (should check his profile and his myspace bullsh...) anyone who is being talked to by that guy, he is a hoax.

 

Flip

[Spins321]

hehe, that's pretty cute, Flip. :)

[GGTharos]

Not to mention he said 'go get the real data from Jane's' ... heh!

[Anytime]

Might be MrMudd back for another try!

 

Not to mention he said 'go get the real data from Jane's' ... heh!

[Spins321]

I know MrMudd personally. He's legit.

 

Although, noone here knows who I am, so who am I to say. :)

[Frodo13]

Might be MrMudd back for another try!

 

Mr. Mudd is very legit.

 

Ask Wags, Stormin will confirm him.

[pschelchshorn]

if youre talking about that guy that flies with Cinch from the VTB then i knew him too until he was very lets say unprofessional to me word wise and other things for no valid reason. I believe he is legit but just not a person id want to be around with if he ticks off like that all the time.

 

 

Flip

[Frodo13]

Well, you might be confused with someone else because he hasn't been on the Net flying for the past several months or even a year.

 

He doesn't fly with the VTB. He doesn't have enough time to do things like that.

[pschelchshorn]

Well, you might be confused with someone else because he hasn't been on the Net flying for the past several months or even a year.

 

He doesn't fly with the VTB. He doesn't have enough time to do things like that.

 

then we are talking about the same guy. I didnt say he flies with the VTB; i said CINCH flies with the VTB.

 

Flip

[Wags]

Mr. Mudd is very legit.

 

Ask Wags, Stormin will confirm him.

 

I'm not going to go into detail, but "Mr Mudd" was not what he stated to be and certainly not a fast jet pilot. Over the years I have had run into several characters that claimed to be fighter pilots, but after further investigation found out they were full of it.

 

-Matt

[TucksonSonny]

Actually, I proposed to ED a long time ago to have characteristic options included in all their sims so we can experience Gs like realistically.

 

You must put a check mark in one of these before each flight:

 

1. 185 pound of chit hot pilot, 9 Gs is nothing.

2. I'm just a 4 eye nerd who loves flight sim, I pass out at exactly 1.01 G.

3. I love Mickey D's and probably won't fit inside the cockpit anywayz.

4. I'm gay and I am NOT getting in that...that atrosity until I give it a makeover!

 

5. That hot pilot will get the feeling of 20Gs if he would even try to follow me on a race-bike :D

(I am training with the race-bike for about 2.5 hours daily and for the last 20 year (about 17000km/year) have won several amateur bike races too)

[pschelchshorn]

I'm not going to go into detail, but "Mr Mudd" was not what he stated to be and certainly not a fast jet pilot. Over the years I have had run into several characters that claimed to be fighter pilots, but after further investigation found out they were full of it.

 

-Matt

 

 

god i sooo needed that comment! seriously! :beer:!!

 

Flip

[Frodo13]

I'm not going to go into detail, but "Mr Mudd" was not what he stated to be and certainly not a fast jet pilot. Over the years I have had run into several characters that claimed to be fighter pilots, but after further investigation found out they were full of it.

 

-Matt

 

 

Interesting Matt in that you say that.

[Dusty Rhodes]

So that was you, eh Rugg?