Vikhr missiles stop working after a while and nose dive

[Fri13]

 

The Vikhr-1 missile is part of the Vikhr-M system, which also includes an automatic sight and a depressible launcher. Adopted in 1990.

 

It would be interesting to find out what system really is in the KA-50, as the Su-25T system got a automatic target search and lock (meaning the camera system was capable to scan a terrain and then find itself a matching target contrast and lock to it automatically), as well automatic targeting to coordinates programmed in start of the mission. So all that pilot was required to do was to let the autopilot to fly the route while pilot observes the parameters, then Vikhr system automatically turned On when closing the target area and targeted to given target area. It was the pilot job to check target and squeeze the trigger to launch missiles.

 

The Su-25T Shkval system as well has automatic target return after targeting system gimbal limits. Meaning same system as the AV-8B Harrier II has with ABRS. So once you fly away and you turn back to the previous target point direction, Skhval system returns the targeting gate to last locked position so pilot had easy time to perform a second attack run without searching the target or target area.

 

All these are missing in Su-25T in DCS because FC3 level.

 

In Su-25TM there were few better features added to the Skhval system, making it far more efficient.

[lobo]

It was frustrating when you could not hide behind stuff and AI could shoot through trees... This is a whole new experience now. Actually 2.5 is why I got back into the Ka-50.

[Frederf]

But this error that OP has, has nothing to do with the laser burning out.

 

It certainly can happen without a very high laser temperature. Even if you allow it to cool after every missile shot or range measure so it stays <300K you will get a fail to guide Vikhr after some number of shoots.

 

If it can be found that Vikhr guide failure happens on a predictable number of Vikhr firings 20, 25, 30, etc. then it will be interesting to see if other laser functions (ranging, designating) still work even when Vikhr guidance does not. That would suggest laser is fine and the guidance failure is some other problem.

[Fri13]

It certainly can happen without a very high laser temperature. Even if you allow it to cool after every missile shot or range measure so it stays <300K you will get a fail to guide Vikhr after some number of shoots.

 

If it can be found that Vikhr guide failure happens on a predictable number of Vikhr firings 20, 25, 30, etc. then it will be interesting to see if other laser functions (ranging, designating) still work even when Vikhr guidance does not. That would suggest laser is fine and the guidance failure is some other problem.

The errors that I have experienced are without rearming and either after couple shots or in first shots that I make, by using that exact method by keeping laser of before lock or just ranging once before launch.

 

That is why it didn't make sense as there wasn't even wind but default weather.

 

You shoot and after few seconds the missile just drops. And it specifically drops straight down, not by flying some random direction.

 

A perfect launch parameters and it just didn't work.

 

Reload mission and all things works.

 

It is not about laser burnout or tracking error or anything.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[Dugong]

It's still possible to enable the HUD laser temperature display.

 

Open HUD_SHKVAL_page.lua with notepad++

 

starting on line 126 to line 134 there is a bunch of code dashed out. Remove the dashes and you'll get the hud display.

 

Makes it easier to work out what's going on and why your laser is overheating.

[PeaceSells]

The errors that I have experienced are without rearming and either after couple shots or in first shots that I make, by using that exact method by keeping laser of before lock or just ranging once before launch.

 

That is why it didn't make sense as there wasn't even wind but default weather.

 

You shoot and after few seconds the missile just drops. And it specifically drops straight down, not by flying some random direction.

 

A perfect launch parameters and it just didn't work.

 

Reload mission and all things works.

 

It is not about laser burnout or tracking error or anything.

 

I never had that error. Did you notice if the laser illuminates for the normal amount of time when you fire the vikhr? Because when I get the burn out problem, it only illuminates for like 2 seconds and then the missile goes down.

[Rogue Trooper]

But why then would my very next Vikhr shot guide properly?

 

 

 

Too fast on release for the previous missile perhaps, do you set the fire control to auto or manual?

[Rogue Trooper]

The laser is definitely repairable now. I have verified that a few times at this point, so that's a step forward.

 

e.g.

 

1 - Fire a bunch of vikhrs

2 - Laser stops working, vikhrs nosedive.

3 - Repair

4 - vikhrs work again.

 

 

It's also not related to the new trees, because this can be induced repeatably for me in NTTR, specifically around Creech where there are almost no trees at all, no less the new ones.

 

I hear ya on the dual mode laser Frederf, but it is operating the other way around. It ranges 100% fine in this condition (for cannon use, or rangng unguided munitions for example), but won't guide the vikhrs.

 

 

Yes the Laser works on repair now.

I got two loads plus 1 or 2 missiles in the old days when laser repair did not work....... repair just would not repair the laser!

You had to be real tight on ranging and beaming in the "good ol days".

you just learned to be tight back then.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Rogue Trooper

[lobo]

Too fast on release for the previous missile perhaps, do you set the fire control to auto or manual?

 

I set it to manual.

[Frederf]

The errors that I have experienced are without rearming and either after couple shots or in first shots that I make, by using that exact method by keeping laser of before lock or just ranging once before launch.

 

That is why it didn't make sense as there wasn't even wind but default weather.

 

You shoot and after few seconds the missile just drops. And it specifically drops straight down, not by flying some random direction.

 

A perfect launch parameters and it just didn't work.

 

Reload mission and all things works.

 

It is not about laser burnout or tracking error or anything.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

 

Guidance does not always run for the same length of time. Guidance time is based on memory of range to target. If actual distance traveled is larger than this range to target value then guidance may stop while missile is still in air.

[Fri13]

Guidance does not always run for the same length of time. Guidance time is based on memory of range to target. If actual distance traveled is larger than this range to target value then guidance may stop while missile is still in air.

Yes, as guidance measures the distance and then when launching Vikhr it will adjust the laser beam width so it stays about 7m wide at the distance where missile is flying by keeping track of missile distance with estimation of its speed. Why target will not receive laser paint warning with laser detector sensors or just in last couple seconds that it is already too late.

 

But this is with correct optimal range launch. Like target at 4km distance and Vikhr just drops without reason like at 1km.

 

You can repeat the same conditions and mission but not get failure than sometimes randomly, what makes it even more problematic to debug.

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[Rogue Trooper]

I set it to manual.

 

 

 

Too fast on release I reckon, vikhrs should only be on manual when excessive long ranges are required and when you are at a vastly superior altitude.

your altitude passes potential energy to your missiles kinetic energy.

 

 

The automated Timer and targeting are actually your friends in the right circumstances.

 

 

Kannon usage at a point blank range is the only other time manual mode needs to be activated, continuous violent fire is all that's required point blank.

[Ranma13]

If actual distance traveled is larger than this range to target value then guidance may stop while missile is still in air.

The laser painting will run for 6 seconds beyond the estimated impact time. It is highly unlikely that the painting will stop before the missile hits unless the initial range finding is very off (like estimating 1km when the target is 6km away).

 

vikhrs should only be on manual when excessive long ranges are required and when you are at a vastly superior altitude.

I use them on manual all the time, you don't need to be at a vastly superior altitude. If you're hovering at 20m and the target is on a flat plane from you, you can get about 6-7km out of the missile. At 300m or higher, this extends out to about 8-9km, maxing out at around 10km if you're very high above the target.

[Reaper6]

I use them on manual all the time, you don't need to be at a vastly superior altitude. If you're hovering at 20m and the target is on a flat plane from you, you can get about 6-7km out of the missile. At 300m or higher, this extends out to about 8-9km, maxing out at around 10km if you're very high above the target.

What on earth are you doing at 300m???? The Vikhr will pretty much outrange most basic air defenses(as long as you stay 50m or less). 8.7km at 50mAGL, that's all you need. If you're trying to get 10km out of your Vikhr, you're putting the Shark in a situation it's not made for. Just my opinion of course...

 

 

Reaper6

[StandingCow]

What on earth are you doing at 300m???? The Vikhr will pretty much outrange most basic air defenses(as long as you stay 50m or less). 8.7km at 50mAGL, that's all you need. If you're trying to get 10km out of your Vikhr, you're putting the Shark in a situation it's not made for. Just my opinion of course...

 

 

Reaper6

 

I think he was only pointing out that at a higher altitude you COULD get more range, he didn't necessarily suggest it was the right thing to do.

[Gizzy]

What on earth are you doing at 300m???? .....Reaper6

 

Entirely dependent on terrain, topography and mission objective unless you are referring to flat ground in the open and nothing between you and the target.

[Reaper6]

sorry sorry...

 

 

Reaper6

[dimitriov]

Btw, There is something that sounds strange for me in this story.

 

I'm fine with the fact that the laser has limited illuminations, nothing to say about it.

 

Still, why does it always happen (at least to me) when I rearm with new vikhrs, and fire the first one of them ? I mean, I shoot the 12 first Vikhrs, everything is fine. Cease firing, illuminating, do an RTB, rearm in vikhrs, come back, and then, first shot, flouuuuuw shproum. lol

 

So usually I tend to ask for a repair with rearm. Still sounds strange to me, like if rearming enabled this parameter in the code.

[Rogue Trooper]

Basically the manual/auto mode is a tool that should be used in both modes.

the Auto mode has really saved me from wasting missiles in a 6 - 7 km range due to a high work load environment. the Auto mode is my bestest friend!

 

 

At excessive long range or at point blank HMS Kannon walking fire the manual mode is my bestest friend