Disappointing performance drop, 2.5 & 2.5.1

[David OC]

Thanks, I checked and did some short testing.. this is how things look like when flying:

 

 

 

Some CPU data while flying (HyperThreading OFF):

 

 

 

Time to upgrade ? :huh::unsure:

 

What are you running the i7-2600k at? You should see better performance at 4.X GHz you should get 4.4 quite easy with good cooling? From the little research I did.

 

You want to be GPU bound in DCS with that card you have "Gigabyte GTX 1080TI" and have it flat out at 99% GPU usage the whole time, as little up and down as posible.

 

As you can see I can press more on the CPU 5 GHz and it does little as the card is holding max. I do have a little room to overclock the GPU now to get a little more. All this hopefully will change with more optimization now and down the track... when ED can really use more of the CPU cores using Vulkan api technology. If and when it is going to be that good?? I will possibly switch to an AMD threadripper 1950x with 16 Cores at 4.0GHz:D

 

Max settings 1440P

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by David OC

[BrainFart0]

What are you running the i7-2600k at? You should see better performance at 4.X GHz you should get 4.4 quite easy with good cooling? From the little research I did.

 

You want to be GPU bound in DCS with that card you have "Gigabyte GTX 1080TI" and have it flat out at 99% GPU usage the whole time, as little up and down as posible.

 

As you can see I can press more on the CPU 5 GHz and it does little as the card is holding max. I do have a little room to overclock the GPU now to get a little more. All this hopefully will change with more optimization now and down the track... when ED can really use more of the CPU cores using Vulkan api technology. If and when it is going to be that good?? I will possibly switch to an AMD threadripper 1950x with 16 Cores at 4.0GHz:D

 

Max settings 1440P

 

 

Whoaaa... those GPU lines look alot more stable/higher. It's time to upgrade! :) Current system is still on the old Sandy-bridge, running the 2600k on stock 3.4Ghz.

I'm now looking for a 7700k DDR4 system with NVME SSD.

 

Thanks for the help!

Edited May 22, 2018 by BrainFart0

[Art-J]

Dave, what app provides all this on screen data anyway? Is it from some new version of MSI Afterburner?

[Headwarp]

Personally - coming from an i5 2500k @4.5ghz to my current 8700k @4.7 using the same video card - performance between the two CPU's, regardless of the difference in ddr3 and ddr4 ram is negligable when it comes to gaming and DCS.

 

OP has literally one of if not the best gaming rig money can buy at the moment, even if it is pushing the limits of an OC on that cpu - if it's stable through stress testing, video rendering, and most other games he can play that indicates stability.

 

MP servers initial load in stuttering is widespread. Everybody I fly with, which can be anywhere from 2-8 people all experience this. This includes people running 7700k's and 1080Ti's because they are VR users and want the most horsepower available to them.

 

Today on 3 different servers - we were randomly freezing mid sortie at the same time, which indicates server side performance, or perhaps even something happening when new players spawn in.

 

In SP missions - I can be flying low maintaining 70-80+ fps and suddenly look at something that causes a drop into the 40's. What I'm looking at that's causing this I have no idea. In this particular instance I was pointed away from the ground targets in the mission when my frames dipped.

 

Most of the posters in this thread are running 1080Ti's and CPU's that can easily achieve over 4ghz.

 

Can we admit it's something within the game engine and not the end-user's hardware?

 

I mean no disrespect..and I wish i could be of more help in pointing out the direct cause. But

there's only a certain point at which our hardware could be the issue.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Headwarp

[DflippinK]

Agreed... honestly dont believe that DCS benefits from OC'ing much past 3.7ghz... think the game engine itself is where performance must be optimized..

[David OC]

Whoaaa... those GPU lines look alot more stable/higher. It's time to upgrade! :) Current system is still on the old Sandy-bridge, running the 2600k on stock 3.4Ghz.

I'm now looking for a 7700k DDR4 system with NVME SSD.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

There's better tech out now than what I'm using BrainFart0, such as the Intel i7-8700K and AMD's Ryzen 7 (8 Core) @ 4.33GHz. I'm still on a 4 core CPU, i7-8700K is a 6 Core and can hit 5 GHz.

 

Hard time to decide when building a new rig with many options, start a thread in the PC Hardware and Related Software and discuss the options before you jump in.

 

Dave, what app provides all this on screen data anyway? Is it from some new version of MSI Afterburner?

 

Yep, just turned on the on screen options in MSI and then cut (Photoshop) the GPU % graph to the top.

 

Agreed... honestly dont believe that DCS benefits from OC'ing much past 3.7ghz... think the game engine itself is where performance must be optimized..

 

I do agree, DCS 2.5 needs more optimizations and is pushing into Vulkan tech and hopefully down the track DCS wont be so cpu single core/thread MHz bound. As you can see DCS is capped with the GPU tho in the my test and only one core is around 80 % but only 50% (of 4 full cores) overall cpu % used, you want to be able to feed the gpu beast the best you can in this app. Vulkan should use more cpu cores and balance the load between cpu and gpu more hopefully.

 

Just helping BrainFart0 here, you do need some power behind a GPU like he has, the cpu ram throughput is not matching what the GPU can really do. This would be seen I'm guessing if tested in other very stressful applications, DCS being one of THE most stressful sim / game compared to any other out there, just look at what is going on in this sim at anytime, I'm still surprised what we can do in this sim.

 

I look at overall throughput using MSI in any sim/game to see what part of the system is getting limited by the software and balance it out myself by overclocking CPU / GPU to get the best performance with the hardware.

Edited May 23, 2018 by David OC

[DflippinK]

Yeah.. im runnin it pretty maxed out in 4k on the r7 1800x at stock clocks and boost(3.7-4.1) with an evga 1080ti stock settings and vsync locked at 60... everythin running comfortable and cool... ive also downclocked my cpu to 3.5 and it runs just the same... no matter what the adjustment, the game engine seems to only really need 2 cores at about 3.5, and a GPU with some power to spare.. MSAA does still significantly increase GPU load.. but at 4k 2x MSAA looks good.. so not really complaining... think the GTX 1080s should be fine.. probably the 1070's too..

[Headwarp]

I do apologize if anybody felt singled out by my post. David OC you actually gave good advice.

 

BrainFart could very well see performance increases by getting that 2600k over 4ghz and Sandy Bridge is pretty well known for it's overclockability. I had my 2500k @ 4.5 on a copper heatsink and air. An AIO liquid unit would do wonders.

 

I was more looking at the OP's system, and his description of a performance decrease between two versions, which to me doesn't sound like a hardware issue. If it was OC instability it would likely show itself with system crashes/BSOD's well before one could even load up a game, rather than suddenly showing a decrease in FPS.

 

Overall I'm happy ED has made strides for 2.5 and the new client, I'm eagerly awaiting the release and development of the Hornet.

 

There are just a few shortcomings that I hope to see get worked out eventually, and by no means am I saying that with the intention of discouragement.

 

I'm rooting for ED and friends. It's an exciting year for DCS World.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Headwarp

[BrainFart0]

Again, thanks for the help! I realy appreciate it! :)

 

 

I overclocked the 2600k to 4.2ghz, no difference at all, not even a minor change in fps.

 

 

Still stuck on VR preset with preload-dist/trees dialed back, PD 1.0... Can't go higher or it stutters.

 

 

It's realy looking like a DCS performance issue....

[Headwarp]

Downloaded the latest OpenBeta update this morning, and at least in singleplayer - performance seems to have improved a bit for me. Will have to see if there is any improvement in MP once the majority of servers have updated as well.

 

I'm still running without MSAA, but am getting away with Supersampling 2x in NV control panel to make up for that. I'm not making any recommendations for VR settings, but at least on my 3440x1440 monitor with a 980 Ti - things feel better.

 

Well played, ED and friends, well played.

 

*Edit - response to DflippinK - the higher the resolution you play at, the more GPU dependent things become. For poops and giggles you can monitor your cpu/gpu usage between 1080p and 4k. gtx 970 was a big deal when they were new because it pretty much set the bar for 1080p performance when paired with a fast processor in most games. Once you hit 2k or higher resolutions cpu clockspeed matters less than how beefy the gpu is. And on that note - I'm eager for nvidia's next generation of cards.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Headwarp

[Canada_Moose]

Downloaded the latest OpenBeta update this morning, and at least in singleplayer - performance seems to have improved a bit for me. Will have to see if there is any improvement in MP once the majority of servers have updated as well.

 

I'm still running without MSAA, but am getting away with Supersampling 2x in NV control panel to make up for that. I'm not making any recommendations for VR settings, but at least on my 3440x1440 monitor with a 980 Ti - things feel better.

 

Well played, ED and friends, well played.

 

*Edit - response to DflippinK - the higher the resolution you play at, the more GPU dependent things become. For poops and giggles you can monitor your cpu/gpu usage between 1080p and 4k. gtx 970 was a big deal when they were new because it pretty much set the bar for 1080p performance when paired with a fast processor in most games. Once you hit 2k or higher resolutions cpu clockspeed matters less than how beefy the gpu is. And on that note - I'm eager for nvidia's next generation of cards.

 

 

 

 

If i recall correctly, none of the Nvidia CP AA options work in the deferred shader environment of DCS except for FXAA. Your 2x Super sampling is a placebo.

[Headwarp]

If i recall correctly, none of the Nvidia CP AA options work in the deferred shader environment of DCS except for FXAA. Your 2x Super sampling is a placebo.

 

You're likely right on that. I've done something that seems to have reduced perceived shimmering on objects/buildings in the distance, which is likely more to do with the texture filtering options in NV control panel and my mind must have attributed that to enabling SS.

 

There's still a slight shimmer but noticeably less than before I started playing around in NV Control Panel on a whim.

 

Having turned off Supersampling and running a couple quick flights - things still looked about the same, albeit I suddenly feel the need to enable it to check and see if those jaggies looking at the wings of the AV8B are still there when I look behind.

 

However at least one part of my post remains true - flying around low alt my FPS rarely drop below 60 at the moment in SP, and only get higher as I climb in altitude.

 

Feel its worth mentioning Trillinear optimization and AF sample options to off reduces shimmers to much more acceptable level, where previously - I felt torn between msaa/lower fps and shimmers/more fps. Have no idea why i had them set to on in the first place.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Headwarp

[Canada_Moose]

I see there is a new SSAA in game option in the beta update this morning.

[Johnny_Rico]

Whoaaa... those GPU lines look alot more stable/higher. It's time to upgrade! :) Current system is still on the old Sandy-bridge, running the 2600k on stock 3.4Ghz.

I'm now looking for a 7700k DDR4 system with NVME SSD.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

You really should just buy a better cooler and overclock that 2600K to 4.5Ghz or so

Edited May 23, 2018 by Johnny_Rico

[Headwarp]

I see there is a new SSAA in game option in the beta update this morning.

 

Haha and here I was thinking I'd just gotten the best image quality/performance I could out of this video card/monitor setup in 2.5.

 

Moose, thank you for pointing that out, and for making me feel slightly stupid today. Indeed I do find it to be a good thing when my derp moments being pointed out lead to improvements of any given situation.

[Canada_Moose]

Haha and here I was thinking I'd just gotten the best image quality/performance I could out of this video card/monitor setup in 2.5.

 

Moose, thank you for pointing that out, and for making me feel slightly stupid today. Indeed I do find it to be a good thing when my derp moments being pointed out lead to improvements of any given situation.

 

 

No problem! I think we have all bee there with the Nvidia CP AA options :smilewink:

 

 

Im a little surprised there is no mention of the new options settings in the release notes this morning.......guess we have to figure it out. Not sure if SSAA should be a standalone setting or if its meant to be used in conjunction with the MSAA settings etc.

[Headwarp]

No problem! I think we have all bee there with the Nvidia CP AA options :smilewink:

 

 

Im a little surprised there is no mention of the new options settings in the release notes this morning.......guess we have to figure it out. Not sure if SSAA should be a standalone setting or if its meant to be used in conjunction with the MSAA settings etc.

 

SSAA wrecked havoc on my framerate. 1.5x gave me worse FPS than msaa, and 2x was a slideshow. Which - makes sense..considering it's actual Supersampling and I'm playing at a higher than average resolution already. This is probably would have happened if supersampling in NV control panel actually did anything. This option might not be bad for someone running a beefy video card on a 1080p monitor.

 

I think I'll stick with my happy medium of FXAA and high FPS. Actually looking pretty good.

 

Sorry mods for moving slightly off topic here.. I will digress with my statement that 2.5.2 in general - minus new aa options seems to have allowed for a performance increase.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Headwarp

[BrainFart0]

About that new SSAA... In VR everything gets enlarged, not an option for VR?

[DflippinK]

Headwarp *Edit - response to DflippinK - the higher the resolution you play at, the more GPU dependent things become. For poops and giggles you can monitor your cpu/gpu usage between 1080p and 4k. gtx 970 was a big deal when they were new because it pretty much set the bar for 1080p performance when paired with a fast processor in most games. Once you hit 2k or higher resolutions cpu clockspeed matters less than how beefy the gpu is. And on that note - I'm eager for nvidia's next generation of cards.

 

totally understand.. but the logic that often gets disregarded in the quest for max FPS is that you only need to feed the GPU what it can handle.. suppose the GPU is bound to 60fps.. no matter what resolution, your CPU can handle that feed... so,.. is 60fps acceptable,... or for some reason do you need 144fps?.. or more.. in that case you would require the CPU to process more food for the GPU to eat... Max fps is always going to be a troublesome goal for all hardware... but it isnt anything anyone really needs..

For VR it seems that 90fps is the bottom line.. weather or not that is attainable for DCS with current hardware is beyond me, but bounding the GPU to only ask for the frames you need would likely relieve any unnecessary stresses that your CPU would have to go through..

 

Ex.. at 3.7ghz on R7 1800x and 1080ti

4k/60fps/= CPU primary core 56% load/ GPU@ 66% load/50c

2k/60fps/= CPU primary core 43% load/ GPU@ 34% load/ice cold

ect...

 

Guess we just have to tune to what is acceptable FPS wise.. which might still be pretty troublesome for the VR bunch even with the latest hardware..

I also am excited for whats to come from Nvidia!!

Edited May 23, 2018 by DflippinK
messed up

[DflippinK]

Is there any way to prevent the forum from logging you out while typing a reply.... :helpsmilie:sometimes im just not fast enough.. Lol..

[Raven434th]

Is there any way to prevent the forum from logging you out while typing a reply.... :helpsmilie:sometimes im just not fast enough.. Lol..

 

 

 

I hear ya...simply try typing your message in notepad and copy paste.

[DflippinK]

yeeah... but it lost my quote for Headwarp's earlier reply... just dont want to be a crappy forum member haha..

[Headwarp]

yeeah... but it lost my quote for Headwarp's earlier reply... just dont want to be a crappy forum member haha..

 

It's all good. My moniter has a 100hz refresh rate, but it's also g-sync so lower isn't necessarily bad. I can notice less fluidity at 60 fps than say 75 or higher. I'm not saying 60 FPS isn't enjoyable, but with a PC being part of my life for over 20 or more years now my eyes do pick up differences in framerates.

 

 

I wasn't implying anyone needs to chase a certain framerate. And admittedly - I overlooked brainfart being a VR user. I can't speak for it but I imagine the same applies to the resolution of a VR headset that it would to myself or a 4k user, that with current GPU technology a faster CPU isn't going to help. My wingmates that use VR however don't complain too much when we're flying DCS together, so with that 1080Ti you should be able to find settings that are at least playable currently.

 

And it sounds to me like we're talking what's required to feed your monitor if neither your gpu or CPU are struggling to run DCS :)

 

If I could get 100FPS at all times I'd definitely aim for it having a 100hz monitor. Sure less than 90 fps isn't going to make me nauseus My poor 980Ti is bottlenecking however, and I refuse to upgrade after only one generation lol. I mean, it took intel 6 generations to convince me I wanted a new CPU.

 

My apologies if I've gotten myself a little confused. I'll end this with saying - my frames aren't dropping below 60FPS atm with my current settings, and up high I'm well over. I'm content with that until I feel rich enough to get a new GPU.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Headwarp

[BrainFart0]

Yes we do need more graphical power for VR to make it realy flawless, also i've read/seen alot about how newer generation processors (7700k/8700k) make fps drops less and therefore better sustained fps.

 

Would be great to hear about how people experienced DCS performance after upgrading to a newer gen processor like for example; from 2600k to 6700k/7700k/8700k.

 

How do you guys think about this?

[BitMaster]

compared to MSAA4x, SSAA 1.5x has a better quality and like 50% more fps, nice !

 

The KA-50 free flight mission went from 50ish with MSAA4x to 28fps with SSAA2x and back up to 75ish with 1.5x.

 

Tho 2x looks awesome, 28fps is meh. 1.5x still looks better than MSAA4x with extreme visibility, shimmer is non existent anymore for my perception.

 

A quick M2000 Free Flight is a 100+ fps mostly, nice !