HMS Hermes R12 Released V2.5

[Beldin]

You really do not want to miss that first wire

Edited May 24, 2024 by Beldin

[joey45]

Yeah sea trials, didn’t end well for the happy H. Too much work to do so converted to ASW/Commando Carrier.

[Beldin]

2 hours ago, joey45 said:

Yeah sea trials, didn’t end well for the happy H.

I'm not even sure they tried landing the F-4 on Hermes in the trials. I recall reading something about the F-4(s) being loaded in port.

I can make it work in game with the ai but you really have to get the aircraft weight down.

[Valkyrie1-1]

23 minutes ago, Beldin said:

I'm not even sure they tried landing the F-4 on Hermes in the trials. I recall reading something about the F-4(s) being loaded in port.

Pretty sure an American F-4 landed on, needed to be craned off afterwards though.

[Beldin]

42 minutes ago, Valkyrie1-1 said:

Pretty sure an American F-4 landed on, needed to be craned off afterwards though.

Yeah I might have had it backwards.

[Richard Dastardly]

At least there's more margin for error than when I was trying the Hornet & the Tomcat(!) on Melbourne ( neither wanted to trap anyway ). But that's another thread's topic.

I wonder what sort of force you'd need out of those cats to get a Phantom back off again, they're not amazingly long...

[Beldin]

1 hour ago, Richard Dastardly said:

I wonder what sort of force you'd need out of those cats to get a Phantom back off again, they're not amazingly long...

I found this at one site. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/McDonnell_Douglas_Phantom_in_UK_service

"The RN was happy with the Phantom as its Sea Vixen replacement, given that the type had been operational in the fleet air defense role with the USN since 1961. USN Phantoms had also successfully undertaken touch-and-go landings on HMS Hermes and HMS Victorious. During her 1966 Far East deployment, Victorious was able to successfully launch and recover USN Phantoms from the carrier USS Ranger. The RAF was less enthusiastic, as the Phantom was not optimized for the close air support role, and had been selected as its Hunter replacement more as a way of decreasing the per-unit cost of the overall UK order."

Not sure if Hermes and Victorious used the the same catapults but Victorious was a bit longer. I think the other issues was even had the catapults been upgraded the UK F-4s would have have had to operate with a much lower fuel load and their time on station would have be much lower than the Sea Vixen they were replacing.

I wonder if the F-8 Crusader was ever considered? They were able to operate from the Essex Class refits that were not much bigger.

[Richard Dastardly]

1 hour ago, Beldin said:

I wonder if the F-8 Crusader was ever considered? They were able to operate from the Essex Class refits that were not much bigger.

And more to the point the French ones were modified for even smaller carriers. Single seat & rather worse radar than the Phantom though & the RAF would never have taken it ( and then we got teh SHAR 1 with a modified radar from a Lynx ).

The air wing with Phantoms & Buccs would have been miniscule too.

[Beldin]

1 hour ago, Richard Dastardly said:

Single seat & rather worse radar than the Phantom though & the RAF would never have taken it

I couldn't help myself

[joey45]

Hermes would of had to have new cats, uprated wires and a reinforced deck.. With PTSD from Victorious refit (rebuild) they chose the cheaper option and converted Hermes to a Commando / ASW carrier.

IF they didn't do a insurance sca.......... If Victorious didn't catch fire then she would have F4s as well most probably.... 

 

[Richard Dastardly]

8 minutes ago, joey45 said:

Hermes would of had to have new cats, uprated wires and a reinforced deck.. With PTSD from Victorious refit (rebuild) they chose the cheaper option and converted Hermes to a Commando / ASW carrier.

Well, there was an intention to build CVA01 and possibly a 2nd one ( I wish they had, we wouldn't have the terrible carriers we have right now :S ) - assault carriers with WW2 levels of armour was a good idea. What would have been more interesting was if they'd managed to get the P1154 working, supersonic aircraft able to deploy on anything with a landing pad might have changed naval aviation considerably.

[crazyeddie]

HMS Eagle was considered for an F4 conversion, she was the only other RN Carrier of that period that had the hull size and realistic cost potential for that work, but it never happened.  In the end the RN was only ever going to get 1 x F4 Sqn so the need never arose really.  HMS Ark Royal was converted extensively to take F4's in 1977 and whilst Eagle did trail F4's, they did land on and take off again using existing kit, but she would also have needed a huge refit to do the job properly.  F4's were ordered for her air wing but once the decision was made to cancell the F4 refit those aircraft were passed on to the RAF's 43 Sqn, I believe.   One or 2 came back over time to replace accidents and natural wastage !!  (I have a really interesting story of how 1 x F4 came to be lost off HMS Ark Royal, the pilot was a close friend - for another time perhaps !)

The other RN Carriers of that period were never serious contenders for an F4 refit.  HMS Hermes would have to have been almost completely rebuilt from the hukll up to take F4's, that was never a viable option and she had been earmarked as the next Cdo Carrier anyway, a role she was well suited to. HMS Victorious was, I believe, considered but rejected for many reasons, I think she was just too small and too old. 

I served with HMS Eagle when she was a fixed wing Carrier as an NGGLO, and in HMS Hermes (845 Sqn) when she was a Cdo Carrier, the differences in deck size and internally, hangars,  stowage etc, was considerable. 

When they were scrapped Eagle was actually in a much better condition that Ark Royal, so I was told. 

I dont believe the RN ever seriously considered any other US Fixed Wing Aircraft apart from the F4, the Wessex and Sea Kings were UK Westlands built versions of US Helo's of course.  

Thats it, as best I remember. 

 

[joey45]

Thanks dude.

[Valkyrie1-1]

For what its worth the F-8 was considered, something based on the 2x seat TF-8. As already stated however, it wouldn't have held a candle to the F-4. All academic in any case as the F-8 was too long for the lifts on the UK's carriers, F-4 only worked because the nose could be folded.

 

For Eagle, the version of events I''ve heard was that it was going to cost about £30m to "Phantomize" Ark Royal, but only around 35m for Eagle owing to her better material condition. Logic was that they did Ark first as it was thought that, in the event the bean counters got twitchy, it would be easier to justify the relatively small sum on Eagle later than it would be to argue for the £30m for Ark... as things panned out it wasn't all that easy to argue for the £5m afterall.

[Beldin]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie1-1 said:

All academic in any case as the F-8 was too long for the lifts on the UK's carriers, F-4 only worked because the nose could be folded.

Nice find on the F-8 picture. I'd forgot about the folding nose cone bit on the UK Phantom

Edited May 26, 2024 by Beldin

[joey45]

Didn’t the F8 have the Spey engine anyway??? Well a uS license built one or am I thinking of a different plane..

[Richard Dastardly]

47 minutes ago, joey45 said:

Didn’t the F8 have the Spey engine anyway??? Well a uS license built one or am I thinking of a different plane..

That's the rather similar A-7.

[joey45]

15 hours ago, Richard Dastardly said:

That's the rather similar A-7.

Thanks dude, I always get them mixed up.

[Beldin]

Hermes getting some ASW support from HMAS Melbourne And CVS-16 USS Lexington.

Hopefully the S-2 will be available soon.

[joey45]

https://imgur.com/a/FOgHR6R

https://imgur.com/a/azS6ljs

Due to using the dynamic wet deck method the markings are gonna be arg based.

RN early - yellow line

RN late - red and white

French navy

US navy

 

Edited July 8, 2024 by joey45

[Richard Dastardly]

Lovely stuff mate hopefully I'll be able to unpack all my flight gear for release...

Was it you or someone else working on R09 Ark? I entirely lost track of that one over the years.

[Deathmechanic]

Using Joey45's Hermes Mod with full effect.

 

Thank you @Joey45 this mod has made this story come to life.