Shame on me!

[355th_Paulie]

Leave the Quails alone!! I have three of em, chinese quails, two brown, one white. So dont get me started....:badmood:

[S77th-konkussion]

I want the last 5 minutes of my life back.

[crusty1606687734]

That's the nature of desktop simming. If all true forces were calculated, the game would run at 32 FPY (32 Frames Per Year).

My point is that a sim will always be an approximation/ a rough attempt/ a facsimile...

 

Hehe, 32 FPY:( ! Oh, I`ve seen some "cool" approximations recently

though - named Open Falcon...

... just venting my enthusiasm and expressing my honesty (sort of like

Pilotasso did) - hope it won`t get me spanked:huh:

[GGTharos]

I got some great approximations of CTD's from it, too. ;)

[hitman]

Horse feathers! :D

 

Lets be on the safe side here. Cat feathers. Everyones allergic to em...why not.

[Pilotasso]

Pilotasso, you hacking SOB. I hope you die, you gravy sucking pig.

J/K. You can release chaff/flares manually almost as fast as a macro can.

 

 

...and wreck it at the same rate of speed. ;)

 

Anyway I went to detention and almost not used chaff today :D

[Frostie]

So in conclusion its perfectly ok to:

 

macro chaff to defeat a missile(even though the chaff doesnt act realistically)

 

but not to:

 

macro ECM to defeat a missile (even though the ECM dosent act realistically)

 

Yeah thats crystal:doh:

[GGTharos]

Nothing is wrong with a chaff/flare macro,

 

 

Right. Because your missiles going dead off the rail inside burn-through (when they shouldn't) is much less annoying than the blinking blinker.

 

That might be okay for heaters; they bite on flares reasonably. Radar missiles in this game are very poorly behaved with respect to this.

[Frostie]

The guys that ECM blink do so because they don't want to be locked, even at 10 miles which is past burn thru. I had one of the guys at 7 miles and both Sparrows went dead off the rail. I have a track of it if anyone wants it. In fact, maybe I'll just make a movie track so ya'll can see what bullshit it is that someone uses an exploit so that you cannot lock a plane even at 7 miles. Sorry folks, but that just proves that said individual has a severe lack of skills so that he relies on an exploit to "stay alive" in the game. LOPE'ing payloads is the same thing and that's not acceptable (especially to the ecm blinkers).

Sorry dude but I think you,ve just been chaff macro'd not ECM'd there is no ECM after 12miles??

[Frostie]

~You guys are really turning into a right bunch of right-wingers , preaching how the game should be played , judging other peoples actions with unfounded accusations, making derogatory remarks about other servers and just generally acting like you are freaking Angels from above.~

 

I have one question that im sure is on plenty of peoples lips

'just who [whatever word you choose] do you think you are'

[Frostie]

Well...technically, both are taking advantage of unrealistic behavior. The difference is that the countermeasures system (chaff/flare) on real military aircraft can be programmed to release multiple chaff, flares, or combination with a single press of the switch. The control panels in the aircraft, or, in the case of the A-10, right beneath the canopy on the left side exterior, allow the dispensing system to be programmed, and even allows you to set the interval.

 

ECM, OTOH isn't a constant signal in the real world. Its emissions are a series of pulses which are far narrower than any keyboard clock can manage. So, if the real thing can't do it, even though its pulsing even faster than any macro someone could create...then that is a cheat, no matter how bad the missile behavior is. The game doesn't model this electronic behavior correctly, its something which shouldn't even work...but it does.

 

Well...that's my 2 cents anyway. :D

The jammers are a known unrealistic tool, but chaff in LOMAC also has a totally unrealistic effect on missiles, so in retrospect macro chaffers are exploiting the game too.

The list is endless who started this 'your exploiting the game thats why I can't win' crap anyhow.

[hitman]

Do what I do: spray and pray.

[Kuky]

Cali, from russian aircraft do you ever fly MiG-29 or Su-27/33 or just Su-25T?

[GGTharos]

GG, I'm saying there is nothing wrong with using a macro for chaff and flare.

 

And I'm saying that you need to apply the same logic to all 'unrealistic' stuff, not just the ones you mind less or more :)

 

Well, look at it this way; forgetting ECCM which is uber top secret, jammers are around because they work bespite your ECCM - they make you work harder. Let's leave that at this general description.

 

Now, ECM blinking: Technically speaking, you -could- potentially achieve the same thing witha range-gate pull-off DECM. It would look different on the scope and it may or may not work against search radars (you have limited time to do your work in) but it would break the lock. Wether it would work against the F-15's radar is another matter: Point is there is a very real technique that exists and can do it.

Moreover the F-18's SPJ uses simultaneous angle and range jamming to break lock.

 

But again, they don't do the one annoying thing: It doesn't make you vanish off the radar (it can, sort of, but then you're asking for HoJ) which is what I understand is the truly annoying part.

 

So how about this: People start limiting their macros to a blnk every 3-4 sec. It still works, and it lets people track you, and it lets people IFF you.

 

It still reduces BVR to about 12nm, but then again, it makes shots more lethal there - the poor AMRAAM can probably stand the little help it can get in this department.

 

This should be reasonably ok for now until the problem is fixed - there's much, MUCH to fix. This blinking ECM thing is but a small and relativel minor issue in ECM/ECCM/RADAR. So let's not blow it as much outta proportion as it has been.

 

There are things that are JUST as bad, yet people don't consider them 'wrong' ... why the heck not? Anyway. /rant.

 

 

Rugg, I have a track of the blinkers too and message has been sent in their forums. And within burn-thru they can't ECM blink you anymore.

 

 

Yeah, the short-range lock issue is something else. I've seen it before, and I'm pretty sure I've seen a bug where jammers reduce your AACQ mode lock on ranges wether they are blinking or -NOT-. So that's a non-issue as far as being inside burn-through goes, I'm fairly certain.

[Scart]

intresting tread...

as for me ECM blinking doesn't make any problem. BTW mostly flying Flanker, the problem is that you can't surely attack the target till you get 25 km distance. It's important only if you and your target flying pretty high for long range BVR engagement (more than 30 km) in other cases under the 25 km line there is no practical use of blinking.

And talkin about chaff/flares the oldest soviet planes represented in the game having panels which allow to programm chaff/flare dispenser with series, overall time, and interval options. So I'm thinking there no point to ban the chaff/flare macros.

 

BTW properly launched 120/77 surely will hit the blinking target if it will not make a 180 deg turn (thanks for HOJ mode)

[Scart]

OK everyone ECM blink all you want, fly at 10 meters and throw chickens, I guess I'll just get use to it. You won't hear me say another word about this issue.....I'm done.

what button release chickens in LO?, I haven't found this issue in the manual:book:

[Pilotasso]

Right. Because your missiles going dead off the rail inside burn-through (when they shouldn't) is much less annoying than the blinking blinker.

 

That might be okay for heaters; they bite on flares reasonably. Radar missiles in this game are very poorly behaved with respect to this.

 

It was for heaters, you cant dodge radar missiles like that at 10 miles when your doing more than 600mph.

 

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Guest/5/

 

I used a macro similar to this one wich I used for that particular fight.

[Pilotasso]

~You guys are really turning into a right bunch of right-wingers , preaching how the game should be played , judging other peoples actions with unfounded accusations, making derogatory remarks about other servers and just generally acting like you are freaking Angels from above.~

 

I have one question that im sure is on plenty of peoples lips

'just who [whatever word you choose] do you think you are'

 

Soon it wont matter anymore. You wont be able to blink or maddog ET's and then well see who was dependent of exploits and had no skill to stay alive otherwise. I stoped whinning because then all it will mater will be supporting your missile launches the correct way and without engaging invulnerable bazerk mode.

Enough of this.

[Pilotasso]

you can edit your ACMI files in notepad to change the names of all pilots involved with the "search/replace all" command. Its all text.

[Pilotasso]

As I said, it wont matter soon, my Kill ratio is going to soar in BS :D

 

The Exploiters will come back complaining 120 and 77's are unfair and how it was so good in 1.12a when they could arbitrate what was fair and what was not by themselves. Youll see ;)

[Scart]

thanks for rugg for explaining what blinking exactly means:thumbup: everything I can say now, it's really mad:joystick: and sure cheating. For me I haven't met such "blinkers" yet online. this problem can be solved simply by adding into the game a 1 or 2 sec delay for turning ECM on/off such as it will be a ECM system pwron selftest in RL. I think it's not a big problem for ED to fix this issue in BS.

[Pilotasso]

2 sec delay alone wont solve it, it will only mean you can break lock every 2 seconds thats all. Dont fear though there are other ways and those have been proposed.

[Scart]

The Exploiters will come back complaining 120 and 77's are unfair and how it was so good in 1.12a when they could arbitrate what was fair and what was not by themselves. Youll see ;)

The most unfair is ET maddog and active missiles in LO is really a dumb thing

[Scart]

2 sec delay alone wont solve it, it will only mean you can break lock every 2 seconds thats all. Dont fear though there are other ways and those have been proposed.

then I've missed the point again about what is blinking

 

 

It's no problem for me in braking my lock in the way like Pilotasso wrote - it's truly happens at every server I've played and some times I also brake the lock by turning ECM on and switching ECM off then, but it works only till you get at 25 km distance.

 

About the printscreen issue there was a suggestion to ED to fix it by making a status message in the chat ex.: "Scart(Su-27) takes a screnshot" so the patologic cheaters could be banned for using PS button for cheatimg purposes

[Pilotasso]

then I've missed the point againg about what is blinking

 

Ok Im going to give a simple explanation (not because I think your dumb :D but because I dont know intimatly the science of the thing myself, only its tactical implications)

 

In LOMAC every time you swich on ECM it breaks radar lock regardless. So in order to break the radar lock you only need it to have it on and then swiching it off. Blinking has 2 different levels of affecting you:

 

1) Blinking slowly only keeps breaking your lock before the missile reaches its target. Its still unrealistric and annoying though.

 

2)Blinking very fast not only breaks radar lock before you can think about hiting it, but it also prevent you from locking him at all (drops off the moment you designate it), worse, donne right it even prevents you from knowing what hes doing on the scope at all.

 

Its 100% efective in LOMAC because it is user fabricated and the game has no ECCM. Also ED Arbitrated the 15 mile burn thru rule wich they arbitrated themselves, and independently of aircraft involved due to game balance or simplicity of code before time avaiable to change it, I dont know for sure.

It apears even this rule is broken as Rugg already explained, if your looking down the code wrongly halves the range of burn through as if it was a clean ECMless BVR lock attempt.

 

IRL this is not so simple. An F-15 will track any target at least 50 miles away (my brother says he can see other F-16's on his baseline APG-66 30 miles away) and it has built in ECCM capability much like every modern fighter, so the burn thru is pretty dynamic and far from being standoff capable as we see it in LOMAC, not only that but jammers dont work continiously and they can or cannot break your lock. This electronic batlle is always lost in LOMAC when facing ECM and at ranges where it invalidates BVR tactics only by itself by user own arbitrated idea of what he should be capable off doing with his fighter.