[REPORTED] Unable to start APU and engines after running out of fuel

[Oznerol256]

DCS 2.5.2.18736

 

 

After completely running out of fuel, i cannot restart the APU or the engines, even after refueling.

 

 

 

Steps to reproduce:

 

 

 

1. spawn on the ground, hot, with very little fuel

2. apply wheel chocks

3. use afterburner until all fuel is depleted.

4. both throttles to OFF

5. refuel using ground crew

6. apu switch to ON

7. observe apu failure to start. apu sw turns itself back off after a few seconds.

 

bonus round:

 

8. bleed air to OFF

9. request ground crew to connect ground air

10. request ground crew to apply ground air

11. engine crank sw to right

12. observe right engine rpm increasing

13. at 20%, move right throttle to IDLE

14. observe no increase in temperature and rpm. engine does not start.

 

in my track i also request ground power to visualize the fuel quantity on the DDI and IFEI.

They show plenty of fuel in all fuel tanks.

fa18nofuel.trk

[WindyTX]

Ok I hate to say this but this is another time where you are producing a bug for the regime that never happens in real life. It is also something that should never happen in the Sim if you are operating realistically.

 

Why do want ED to spend programming resources on a problem that should be totally irelevant. There is so much more to fix, don't want to appear difficult but there are only so many programming hours available.

 

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[discwalker]

not irrelevant, nice catch.

I'm unable to count how many times I landed flameout Flankers, then refueled those and taken off again to another flameout landing.

[WindyTX]

My mistake I thought we were trying to simulate real life with this Sim. In which case it is totally irelavant.

 

But then again if you just want to treat it as a game then I guess that's your choice ,however there are still a load of fixes required for the Sim that are relevant to everyone no matter whether they play DCS as a Sim or a game.

 

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Edited June 23, 2018 by WindyTX

[Shimonu]

My mistake I thought we were trying to simulate real life with this Sim. In which case it is totally irelavant.

 

But then again if you just want to treat it as a game then I guess that's your choice ,however there are still a load of fixes required for the Sim that are relevant to everyone no matter whether they play DCS as a Sim or a game.

 

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You're saying airplanes never run out of fuel in real life? His operation may be unorthodox but the simulation of the aircraft is obviously still wrong. It's just a shortcut to reproduce a bug. If you want realism then the simulation of running out of fuel and refueling should work as it would in real life, whether the method of producing the behaviour is realistic or not.

[_e10]

My mistake I thought we were trying to simulate real life with this Sim.

I assume we are trying to simulate tech, not procedures.

If it should not happen in real life and not other stated by the devs, then its a bug.

[WindyTX]

That is exactly what I am saying. In real life Aircraft never run out of fuel. Now I will admit I had a friend who flew Lightnings who flamed out an engine taxying in but that is the only example I have ever heard of. I have 10,000 hours and 3000 military If I ever ran my aircraft out of fuel at any stage in my career I would no longer have a job.

 

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[Furia]

I am not familiar with the maintenance procedures of the F/A-18C but I know foir certain in another type of aircraft than in case of flameout due to an absolute fuel starvation and if some fuel lines are completely empty of fuel, that is filled with air, some maintenace actions are required before next flight. Just filling up the tanks it is not enough in some cases.

As I said I am not familiar with the specific procedures of the F/A-18C on that sense, but before calling it a bug I would ensure that the behaviour the DCS module produces is really against what it says on the maintenance manual (for instance a „no Action required in case of complete fuel starvation“ reference)

On the meantime until this is clarified you can start your Hornet without the use of APU by using external pneumatic power that has been recently implemented.

[discwalker]

there is no meantime, external pneumatic start not functioning now after a flameout

Edited June 23, 2018 by discwalker
flameout

[Papa Spardy]

I am not familiar with the maintenance procedures of the F/A-18C but I know foir certain in another type of aircraft than in case of flameout due to an absolute fuel starvation and if some fuel lines are completely empty of fuel, that is filled with air, some maintenace actions are required before next flight. Just filling up the tanks it is not enough in some cases.

As I said I am not familiar with the specific procedures of the F/A-18C on that sense, but before calling it a bug I would ensure that the behaviour the DCS module produces is really against what it says on the maintenance manual (for instance a „no Action required in case of complete fuel starvation“ reference)

On the meantime until this is clarified you can start your Hornet without the use of APU by using external pneumatic power that has been recently implemented.

 

You are 100% correct. if you starve a jet there is no way you are gonna be starting it anytime soon.

 

So im cool with it not starting. Maybe try repairing the aircraft then starting it back up.....

[funkyfranky]

My mistake I thought we were trying to simulate real life with this Sim. In which case it is totally irelavant.

I might not (often) happen in real life - but it can. So it should be simulated. In fact, modelling things like this is what makes it a good sim.

But then again if you just want to treat it as a game then I guess that's your choice ,

Well, to me it seems you are trying to turn in more into a game than a sim.

however there are still a load of fixes required for the Sim that are relevant to everyone no matter whether they play DCS as a Sim or a game.

This is just a bug report. Priorities are set by ED. This one will most likely not delay fixing the important ones first.

[discwalker]

Maybe try repairing the aircraft then starting it back up.....

 

Repair now not fix the flameout problem. Even you must jettison the canopy to force to start a repair!

Edited October 9, 2018 by discwalker
attachment removed

[WindyTX]

The only reason I commented is because this was similar to the bug report of I can only get to 355 of knots with the gear down . You are finding bugs that were probably outside of the testers remit, as they are outside of any reasonable way to operate the Aircraft.

 

 

 

 

 

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[discwalker]

off example

 

If you belly land a flanker and then you try to extend landing gear just fail to stand up the plane,

if you do this with the Hornet it will EXPLODE!!

2,5,3,21708_CAU_HornetBellyLandExplosionGdown.trk https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=194419&d=1537623636 ((from https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218927))

Edited October 9, 2018 by discwalker
reattachment

[WindyTX]

I might not (often) happen in real life - but it can. So it should be simulated. In fact, modelling things like this is what makes it a good sim.

 

Well, to me it seems you are trying to turn in more into a game than a sim.

 

This is just a bug report. Priorities are set by ED. This one will most likely not delay fixing the important ones first.

This comment alone shows me exactly how little comprehension of what a pilots job actually involves.

 

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[mvsgas]

This seems so unlikely is not even part of the emergency procedures for fuel leak or fuel transfer failure. From what I gather, you can probably overheat AMADs which is mention several times and seem to be a more pressing matter.

[funkyfranky]

This comment alone shows me exactly how little comprehension of what a pilots job actually involves.

Pilots would not do a lot of things in real life but that does not mean it should not be simulated. In fact, it is the opposite. If I make a mistake as a pilot, I should be punished for it. Following your argumentation, only correct behavior should be modeled - the rest is irrelevant. That's not my opinion.

Additionally, point out these things to the devs might make them find other bugs they had not considered before.

[mvsgas]

Maybe ED can change the damage model, so the longer you run the engine with less that 4k lbs of fuel, the more you increase the chances of the AMAD caution to come on. Once the caution is on, the longer you run the engine the more likely you aircraft can catch fire.

[WindyTX]

My point is this we have a massive number of bugs in DCS if you want to operate the Aircraft even semi realistically and to brutally honest I want those fixed before I worry about the crank switch auto off is 2% late. I can't get more that 355knots with my gear down and if I run the Aircraft out of fuel it won't restart.

 

If our Sim was perfect I would say go ahead and report but we have so much more that needs fixed that maybe we as a group should think about if we have really found a bug or just found something outside the realms of what ED is trying to simulate. As they are probably only trying to simulate how you would actually operate the Aircraft.

 

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[Pikey]

This happened to me and a friend at the same time. I told him to go hook down at 900 left and he said we could fit in another. Turns out that after taxiing to the side I had 40 pounds of fuel left and it ran dry at idle.

 

So I figured I could refuel it and start it up.

 

However the bug didn't stop at the APU failing to start. The armaments page showed 100% fuel after refueling but the fuel tank showed empty, no matter what i did. The APU just shut down immediately. It simply didn't register the fuel in the tanks and the APU was dead.

 

 

On the topic of should that be simulated, I don't understand the concepts of not modelling an aircraft for things that don't normally happen. People complained the high level Viggen performance was terrible, but should the developer excuse be that "it never flew that high normally?" Or perhaps someone flies upside down too long in the A-10C, should the engine not flameout? Perhaps we should force the autopilot on to do a 180 when there's 10 mig-29's hot, because we wouldn't go there either. Notice the amount of deliberate folded wing takeoffs we already have seen...

 

 

 

There's a bunch of things we shouldn't do or shouldn't happen. It's a sandbox simulator and folks want to try stuff that wouldn't normally be tried.

[Pikey]

Right, so you know the refuel bug code isn't shared with an existing bug in the electrical system and you advocate not saying anything about it because it's not (I agree) top priority?

 

 

I think if we don't we would fail our duty in the open Beta, and I'll not take your advice. But thanks anyway :)

 

My point is this we have a massive number of bugs in DCS if you want to operate the Aircraft even semi realistically and to brutally honest I want those fixed before I worry about the crank switch auto off is 2% late. I can't get more that 355knots with my gear down and if I run the Aircraft out of fuel it won't restart.

 

If our Sim was perfect I would say go ahead and report but we have so much more that needs fixed that maybe we as a group should think about if we have really found a bug or just found something outside the realms of what ED is trying to simulate. As they are probably only trying to simulate how you would actually operate the Aircraft.

 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

[WindyTX]

I know absolutely nothing about the refuel bug I would not be surprised if the engineers wouldn't have to prime the lines to get the pumps to work prior to starting the engine.

 

I don't care what you do with the Sandbox but to report bugs for things that are outside of the known regime for an Aircraft is wasting everyone's time.

 

I'll go see how fast I can push a tank with my gazelle and if it doesn't get to the speed I judge as acceptable I will report it as a bug.

 

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[Oznerol256]

However the bug didn't stop at the APU failing to start. The armaments page showed 100% fuel after refueling but the fuel tank showed empty, no matter what i did. The APU just shut down immediately. It simply didn't register the fuel in the tanks and the APU was dead.

 

I assume you were on battery power and not on ground power?

The IFEI never shows fuel when on battery only. So that indication by itself is not a bug.

This is why i use ground power in my track to show that my fuel tanks have indeed been refueled.

[Druid_]

IRL aircraft have run out of fuel taxying in. Fuel leaks are one reason amongst many.

 

Guys, if you find something unrealistic or plain wrong by all means report it. ED will assign a priority level to it accordingly. There is more than one programmer & they cover different areas of the simulation, so you never know. A low priority bug may get attention earlier than you think.

[Jack McCoy]

I don't care what you do with the Sandbox but to report bugs for things that are outside of the known regime for an Aircraft is wasting everyone's time.

I've had my fuel tank punctured by enemy ground fire in the DCS Huey, which forced me into an emergency landing.

 

Couldn't the Hornet suffer the same fate? How is that so much outside the "known regime" of a military aircraft that it would irritate you so much?