Incorrect RAF Roundel Colours

DD_Fenrir · July 6, 2018

The roundel colour pallette for the default skin is far too light; the blue should be deeper darker hue and the red should be duller and have a slightly more rusty tone to it.

http://www.spitfiresite.com/photos/historic/uploaded_images/Spitfire-AA963-color-1-732027.jpg

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/Spitfire/pages/Great-colour-photos-showing-Spitfires-being-rearmed-England-01.html

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3866/14780326836_be4424d2a4_c.jpg

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/the-beautiful-spitfire-in-colour.html

None of these are colourised, and all are period.

Boris · July 6, 2018

Looking at a few screenshots of the DCS Spitfire in different liveries, I don't think the colours are inaccurate at all, and match the the photos you posted fairly well.

Keep in mind that these photos were taken on older films and the photos have since aged.

Can you post a screenshot of the livery in question?

Reflected · July 6, 2018

Yes they are incorrect. IMO, so are the camo colors. Luckily we have some community made skins ;)

DD_Fenrir · July 6, 2018

Yes they are incorrect. IMO, so are the camo colors. Luckily we have some community made skins ;)

Yeah, some lovely community skins. Unfortunately they aren't any succor in a 'custom skins off' MP server. Or in the multitude of often otherwise cracking online videos.

The dodgy proportions and the neon hues of the stock skin roundels are nearly enough of an eyesore to make me think twice about flying!

I wonder Boris if we're looking at the same game! They really look that similar to you? To me the hue and tone are worlds apart, even viewed across multiple different monitors or gamma settings.

Art-J · July 6, 2018

Personally, I would rather see them taking care of much bigger elephant in the room first - the incorrect proportions of circles in all the roundels, as mentioned numerous times since the release of the module. I understand the texture artist cluelessly copied them from the real MH434, but If they recently fixed the 3D model of barrel shrouds to period correct shape, why not fixing the shape of something as basic as RAF insignia, to make it look period correct as well?

OK, at least they fixed them on upper wings in a few skins for Bunyap's campaigns, one year after release. Only 4 more to go now, so maybe we'll get'em by 2020 :D.

As for the colours, one could argue if wartime photos taken with Kodachrome film (with its inherent saturation peculiarities) are good reference material - probably not quite - but I gather it would not be difficult to check what paints were used exactly for the purpose, what their FS equivalents are and thus what RGB values could be used, at least for the "factory fresh" finish?

Boris · July 9, 2018

Not my screenshot, but I'm not sure "neon hues" is a fair description.

As compared to:

I'm completely with you on roundel proportions. That should be fixed where ever it's an issue.

DD_Fenrir · July 9, 2018

That's a 1.5.8 screenshot, and I agree the colours were better then. Not any longer...

Boris · July 9, 2018

From the DCS Website (2.5):

DD_Fenrir · July 9, 2018

Again, the colours are about right - but that's not the default skin; that was included as a part of three that appeared not long after the Epsom Campaign was released. They got the colours right and the wing roundels the right proportions but the fuselage ones are still wrong.

The skin I'm referring to is called 'RAF Standard'.

DD_Fenrir · July 9, 2018

I suspect that the issue pivots on the modern Roundel Blue/Red colours as used by the RAF today and since the 50's.

Fact is that duller tones were used between 1937 and until post war. Further more paint standards changed in the '60s.

Noted here: https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?101612-Mk-1-Spitfire-Paint-Colour-Codes

I'll quite the relevent post:

Post #14 by Antoni:

BSS 381 was first introduced in 1930. When the Ministry of Aircraft Production formed in 1940 it took over responsibility for producing the colour standards for aircraft paints. Responsibility passed to the Ministry of Supply on 1st April 1946 when it absorbed the MAP. These standards took the form of painted card sheets, enclosed in an envelope, bound in a ring binder, and titled, Ministry of Supply Standard of Colour Gloss and Smoothness for Aircraft Finishes Supplementary to BSS381. It was not until 1964 that aircraft colours were included in BS 381C. Aircraft colours that were in various editions of BS 381 prior to 1964 were there because they already were in BSS 381 (first issued in 1930) when they were chosen for aircraft application.

Dark Green. Introduced 1936. In post war MoS colour range Aircraft Finish No 7. In 1964 Aircraft Finish No 7 was included in BS381C as No 641 Dark Green. This appears to have been a mistake, not corrected until the 1988 edition where the number changed to 241.

Dark Earth. Introduced 1936. MoS Aircraft Finish No 13. BS 381C No 450 Dark Earth.

Night. Introduced 1937. Not a true black but a dark blue-grey made from Carbon Black and Ultramarine pigments. Mos Aircraft Finish No 8. BS 381C No 642.

Sky. Introduced to the RAF circa June 1940. MoS contains two versions, Aircraft Finish No 9 and 9A. They are virtually indistinguishable by the naked eye. No 9A included in BS 381C as No 210 Sky.

Medium Sea Grey. Introduced about 1936. Mos Aircraft Finish No 4. BS 381C No 637.

Red. Dull identification colour used for markings from 1937 until post war when it was replaced by Bright Red. It fell from use and was not included in the MoS range. No match in BS 381C. Closest FS 595B is 30109.

White. Included in the MoS as Aircraft Finish No 1A. No whit colour has ever been included in BS 381 or FS 595.

Blue. Dull identification colour used for markings from 1937 until post war when it was replaced by Bright Blue. It fell from use and was not included in the MoS range. No match in BS 381C. Closest FS 595B is 35048.

Yellow. Used in national markings from 1937 until 1947. MoS Aircraft finish No 2. Not included in BS 381C. Closest FS 595B is 33538.

Basically no modern RAF paint standard should be used as a guide for painting WW2 aircraft.

Boris · July 9, 2018

I too have OCD what this kind of stuff is concerned, so I too find this stuff to be important for realism.

Do you have a screenshot of the Spitfire using post war colours? I my opinion, the screenshots I've posted have colours that are in line with the duller WW2 tones.

However, there are definitely issues with the roundel proportions. The white ring on the Type C.1 fuselage roundel appears too thick on both liveries.

The Type B roundel on the wings of the first screenshot I posted is wrong (red too large). Second screenshot wing roundels appear accurate.

Wikipedia has a good visual summary of the RAF roundels:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_roundels#Roundel_history

jocko417 · July 9, 2018

The problem with using today’s colour references (ie. Federal Standard 595) is the stated “equivalent” colours to the old BS381 colours are NOT equivalent at all, but rather the closest approximation, with only a couple of exceptions that are actual matches.

DD_Fenrir · July 9, 2018

I too have OCD what this kind of stuff is concerned, so I too find this stuff to be important for realism.

Do you have a screenshot of the Spitfire using post war colours? I my opinion, the screenshots I've posted have colours that are in line with the duller WW2 tones.

I agree, the screenies you have posted are better representative of the prototypical roundel colours - but these aren't the skin I have issue with!

However, there are definitely issues with the roundel proportions. The white ring on the Type C.1 fuselage roundel appears too thick on both liveries.

The Type B roundel on the wings of the first screenshot I posted is wrong (red too large). Second screenshot wing roundels appear accurate.

Agreed. It's odd - on the skin in the second screenshot, if you look at the next screenshot in the sequence, you see they corrected the under-wing roundels (which on the RAF Standard skin are also of off proportions) to the correct ratios but not the fus!

DD_Fenrir · July 9, 2018

http://dangerdogz.com/forums/gallery/image/4926-screen_180709_224034png

This image shows what I mean. Taken at midday on Normandy map

Lead aircraft is the 'RAF Standard' default skin whose roundels are too light/bright.

2nd a/c is the '2nd TAF September 1944' Skin that arrived not long after Epsom campaign and whose roundel colours I think are about right.

Finally at the back is a composite template I made from EDs base with roundels by VH_Rock; as it happens I think the blue is a little too dark and is next on my things to fix.

I think this best demonstrates my issue with the 'RAF Standard scheme' when referenced against the period photos I linked originally. The tonality of the rear two aircraft is much closer.