Brunner Force Feedback Joystick Base

[gavagai]

It definitely wasn't set up correctly then, the Brunner DCS plugin accepts airspeed information and provides control loading according to whatever force curves the user has got programmed.

 

With the warbirds I can feel the elevator start to bite on the takeoff run and lose their effectiveness when the aircraft stalls - which is a lot more realistic than a prepackaged buffet effect.

 

I specifically DON'T want to be feeling buffeting, guns firing or anything else that is a canned gaming effect transmitted through the stick.

I've got a Buttkicker and Simshaker for that sort of feedback.

 

The Brunner is expensive but I thought about the time and effort I'd need to put into keeping an out of production consumer grade FFB stick running and decided that the Brunner was the way to go.

I'm blown away with how good it is, but I have spent a lot of time setting the control loading software up.

When I'm feeling brave I'm going to get a quote for the Brunner pedals too...

 

Good to know it is more configurable than what I experienced. Only the old Il-2 had the stick shaking when you fired the guns on the MSFFB2. DCS is a vastly improved experience. A little of buffet approaching a stall is good because you cannot feel the airplane the way you can when you're actually flying.

 

When a good replacement comes for the MSFFB2 I'll be all over it. The Brunner isn't it.

[Extranajero]

A little of buffet approaching a stall is good because you cannot feel the airplane the way you can when you're actually flying.

 

Take a look at Simshaker, I couldn't fly without that now. It does more than stall buffet and is customisable. Can't praise it enough.

 

Some real jets have been given pre stall feedback to assist pilots - the Hawk trainers have a couple of aluminium strips fixed to the wing leading edges ( nicknamed Toblerone because thats what they look like ) to add some buffet warning.

So it's not just sim pilots who need extra feedback...

[Supmua]

With the eminent release of MSFS, I’m pretty sure that we will see several more force feedback devices at least in Yoke format some of which will likely accommodate the DCS community. And I agree with you, any good device becomes no good unless you really know how to set it up.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Supmua

[jameslockridge]

I've had a Brunner now for close to a year. I love the joystick but can't help thinking I"m not getting the most out of it. I don't really understand what all the parameters that are adjustable do. Is there documentation that is geared to a dummy that would help me. I fly mostly the Hornet and the F-16. Are there profiles available for either or both of those planes?

 

There is another question I have regarding DCS do the joystick setting in the game work with the Brunner I was told they don't but I though they do have effect?

 

For me the hardware trim has been worth the price of admission I'm not sure I'd be able to fly anything else.

[FoxTwo]

I fly mostly the Hornet and the F-16.

 

 

Not a lot of reason to use FFB on a FBW airframe.

 

You're going to get the most out of the WW2 warbirds and the non FBW jets like the F-14.

[QuiGon]

Not a lot of reason to use FFB on a FBW airframe.

 

You're going to get the most out of the WW2 warbirds and the non FBW jets like the F-14.

This! In the real F-16 the stick doesn't even move really...

Fly analogue birds (like the Tomcat) to enjoy FFB instead of digital Fly By Wire jets, where you just tell the Flight Control System what to do instead of actuating the control surfaces directly. :joystick:

Edited September 21, 2020 by QuiGon

[jameslockridge]

Not a lot of reason to use FFB on a FBW airframe.

 

You're going to get the most out of the WW2 warbirds and the non FBW jets like the F-14.

 

I'm actually not really concerned with FFB I agree it's nice though. I'd like to model the control stick feel as accurately as possible. I'm not sure I've set that properly I'm sure there are ways to refine it.

[Lynchsl62]

I too would be interested in the "dummy" guide for the Brunner CLS-E. Bought one a year ago and have not used anywhere the full potential. Want to use the Brunner as the joystick for propeller aircraft for DCS, and IL2, but so far not managed to get the full potential. The base is large and deep and needs the MonsterTech Mount, which is so large it is uncomfortable to use in centre mount so I use as side mount. No extension as do not see the need for a variable force feedback curve, and the mount is adjustable for height. I have ordered the Realsimulator F16 Custom Edition to use with this for propeller and 1st generation jets, get the dual functionality. But really need to get smarter with the investment

[moespeeds]

Anyone know if this thing works with the AV8 or the Huey? I keep looking at this thing, but after reading about the low total force, and the forces dropping out during extended pulls, I'm really leery about dropping the coin. I'd definitely get the rudders along with it, as a lack of rudder feedback is one thing that flight sims in general really miss.

[zerO_crash]

I am considering the Brunner CLS-E for quite some time now. Was hing that with time, many of the issues will get fixed and the DCS-plugin evolves.

 

Can anyone with the base provide any updated feedback? Does it work better now?

 

I am still on the fence due to the motors overheating and forces reducing while it cools down.

 

How well does the DCS-plugin integrate with DCS?

 

Is it mostly plug-and-play, or is there much configuring involved?

 

Thanks in advance

[Lynchsl62]

 

11 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

I am considering the Brunner CLS-E for quite some time now. Was hing that with time, many of the issues will get fixed and the DCS-plugin evolves.

 

Can anyone with the base provide any updated feedback? Does it work better now?

 

I am still on the fence due to the motors overheating and forces reducing while it cools down.

 

How well does the DCS-plugin integrate with DCS?

 

Is it mostly plug-and-play, or is there much configuring involved?

 

Thanks in advance

 

I use the Brunner CLS-E exclusively in DCS for warbirds and early hydraulic jets - by exclusively I mean I have stopped using other Simulators it is that good. 
 

The Brunner interface app has not changed/improved and was and still is really useless it only simulates force with no effects 

 

What made the difference is an application developed using an interface controller - this has transformed the experience. See the forum link

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/251148-directx-adapter-for-brunner-ffb-joystick-almost-ready/

 

The Brunner has no benefit for late fly by wire jets. For those the real simulator FSSB R3L with a real simulator grip is the most realistic 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Lynchsl62

[Lynchsl62]

For the warbirds and hydraulic actuators you get the feedback from the stick as to what the plane is experiencing on the control surfaces. Buffeting, prior to stall, wing drop etc fantastic.

 

The stick moves, a significant amount pitch and roll, on my application i have a 10 cm extension and the total travel is around 8 cm in each plane at the top of the stick. The effort or force can be adjusted via the native Brunner app, and also the Arduino app developed by Chuls In the native Brunner App each force effect can be adjusted, but currently in the Chuls Arduino app only the total force is adjusted. Not a real issue and I am hoping it can only improve with development

 

Both the Brunner App and the Chuls Arduino App have to be started prior to DCS, but that is it and they do not take much memory overhead. You need the Chuls Arduino app from day 1 for DCS as it such a game changer and for around £20 for the controller it is less than a discounted module.

 

The hardware trim, or even the DCS hat trim (I use Virpil Control Panel 2) work really well, you can feel the pull/push for nose down or tail heavy and as you trim the plane the pull goes away till the plane is about neutral. I did not understand the significance of trim on flying and especially on fine control during guns or landing, but this makes it so much easier as you feel the trim rather trim and see what effect that has.

[zerO_crash]

5 hours ago, Lynchsl62 said:

 

 

I use the Brunner CLS-E exclusively in DCS for warbirds and early hydraulic jets - by exclusively I mean I have stopped using other Simulators it is that good. 
 

The Brunner interface app has not changed/improved and was and still is really useless it only simulates force with no effects 

 

What made the difference is an application developed using an interface controller - this has transformed the experience. See the forum link

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/251148-directx-adapter-for-brunner-ffb-joystick-almost-ready/

 

The Brunner has no benefit for late fly by wire jets. For those the real simulator FSSB R3L with a real simulator grip is the most realistic 

 

 

 

 

Right, seen that thread indeed. So first and foremost, thanks for an elaborate response.

 

I have been using the MSFFB2 stick, and know well what difference FFB makes. I pretty much fly everything, but mostly helicopters. The feel, and out-of-center-trim are my main reasons for wanting to get one of these. Still, I wonder how intrusive the effect to protect the base from overheating is? When you fly a helicopter, or even a jet (non-FBW), it shouldn't be a problem (you trim all the time). However flying certain WWII-planes like I-16, BF109K4 or FW190D9/A8, you cannot trim either wing down. This means that you are fighting FBW the whole time. How does the stick handle this over time, and how intrusive does the overheating-protection get? Also flying any plane in combat and manouevring a lot? That is one of the two things about this stick that keeps me back from buying one.

 

Also, I notice that there is much setup involved and 3rd party programs needed for the lacking support with the standard plugin. Again, I generally don't have much faith in such programs, as one update in DCS or any driver could ruin it, rendering it non-working until updated again. Therefore, considering the standard software: do you happen to know, being registered on the forums at Brunner, if there are any imminent plans of expanding DCS support with potential DirectX? Is there even any more focus nowadays from Brunner on DCS? Or is it left up to the community to fix their lacking software?

 

Really curious about those two matters. It would be great to be back with FFB again. I'll gladly pay good money for quality, but not for a cripple-product. Be it hardware or software. Could you address the above?

 

Thanks on beforehand!

[Lynchsl62]

I have never had any thermal issues, and I fly warbirds pretty much all the time, the reason I believe this is, is that you are not giving major full scale inputs to the grip/base small subtle deflections are required combined with rudder control to maintain energy management. The missions are not long - so far, typically around 30 minutes or so. Maybe that is another factor. In prepar3d longer flights again with Warbirds/F-86/F-100 generally around 90 minutes and no thermal cut out, so not an issue. No idea how helo controls are used whether the inputs are small or large over an extended period of time? Same is true for space sims, never really tried them 

 

Regarding the Brunner forums, I am afraid the news is not so good, they are not very active at all, and even less so for non core simulations such as DCS/ Il-2/RoF etc. I would not hold out for much continued development from Brunner as there core business is civilian/commercial flight simulation. I believe that Brunner will prioritise MS FS2020 over DCS etc 

[RealDCSpilot]

@zerO_crashI had the same reasons to wait (and wait and wait). Finally, i chose to go the modding road. Please keep taking care of your MSFFB2 stick, regardless if you are going with a Brunner base. Someone might be very interested it it. A guy on reddit tested the motor heat/force protection of the Brunner base: reddit

Edited May 3, 2021 by RealDCSpilot

[zerO_crash]

54 minutes ago, Lynchsl62 said:

I have never had any thermal issues, and I fly warbirds pretty much all the time, the reason I believe this is, is that you are not giving major full scale inputs to the grip/base small subtle deflections are required combined with rudder control to maintain energy management. The missions are not long - so far, typically around 30 minutes or so. Maybe that is another factor. In prepar3d longer flights again with Warbirds/F-86/F-100 generally around 90 minutes and no thermal cut out, so not an issue. No idea how helo controls are used whether the inputs are small or large over an extended period of time? Same is true for space sims, never really tried them 

 

Regarding the Brunner forums, I am afraid the news is not so good, they are not very active at all, and even less so for non core simulations such as DCS/ Il-2/RoF etc. I would not hold out for much continued development from Brunner as there core business is civilian/commercial flight simulation. I believe that Brunner will prioritise MS FS2020 over DCS etc 

Gotcha, so still half the problem remains. This is definately a question of going for Brunner now, or waiting a year or two and maybe getting something more widespread and better supported. Do you regret getting it, or was it worth it in general? Is it worth it for you with only the standard DCS-plugin?

 

41 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@zerO_crashI had the same reasons to wait (and wait and wait). Finally, i chose to go the modding road. Please keep taking care of your MSFFB2 stick, regardless if you are going with a Brunner base. Someone might be very interested it it. A guy on reddit tested the motor heat/force protection of the Brunner base: reddit

 

Yeah well, the potentiometers in my MSFFB2 broke many years ago. It's trashed a long time ago now. I'm using an all-Virpil setup. I am of course very happy with it. With that said, I am awaiting a good FFB-base which will have the same accuracy, have FFB and support my Virpil-stick to change it out. FFB and out-of-centre trim is simply something conpletely different, realistic. Still wondering whether to for Brunner or wait for something else.

 

It's precisely that review that got me suspicious of Brunner's shortcomming. It just doesn't sound good to have such a cooling issue.

Edited May 3, 2021 by zerO_crash

[Lynchsl62]

6 minutes ago, zerO_crash said:

Gotcha, so still half the problem remains. This is definately a question of going for Brunner now, or waiting a year or two and maybe getting something more widespread and better supported. Do you regret getting it, or was it worth it in general? Is it worth it for you with only the standard DCS-plugin?

 

Easy answers - I never regretted buying it as previously I used it in Prepar3D where the plug in is really good and very tuneable. During this time I was using the VKB Gunfighter wiht DCS which whilst good was not immersive in comparison and then the Arduino solution became available and it has been several months since i have even started Prepar3D (again I think MS FS2020 has curtailed that development). Now that I have FFB effects in DCS and even IL-2 I use DCS pretty much all the time, but I also use IL-2 again - not in the same league as DCS but for simple fun with a wide varierty of planes especially with the future release.

 

The standard plug in for DCS is summed up pretty well in the Reddit link - it does not do much - that is why I did not use it for DCS before the Arduino solution, and I would not recommend the Brunner foir DCS without the Arduino solution - which is really very easy to implement and use. I know Chuls has posted to Brunner the opportunity to implement that in CLS2Sim, but there was no response to his posting in the forum

 

The only downside to the Brunner, aside from the obvious cost, is the size, it is large. It cannot be used on the desk it that large and has to be either mounted on the floor with an extension, or as i have on a desk mount - the MonsterTech desk mount. Even then due to the size I cannot use it as center stick and use it on the Right Hand Side of the chair. I do use a 10cm extension, but that is my personal choice for all grips

[zerO_crash]

On 5/3/2021 at 5:35 PM, Lynchsl62 said:

 

Easy answers - I never regretted buying it as previously I used it in Prepar3D where the plug in is really good and very tuneable. During this time I was using the VKB Gunfighter wiht DCS which whilst good was not immersive in comparison and then the Arduino solution became available and it has been several months since i have even started Prepar3D (again I think MS FS2020 has curtailed that development). Now that I have FFB effects in DCS and even IL-2 I use DCS pretty much all the time, but I also use IL-2 again - not in the same league as DCS but for simple fun with a wide varierty of planes especially with the future release.

 

The standard plug in for DCS is summed up pretty well in the Reddit link - it does not do much - that is why I did not use it for DCS before the Arduino solution, and I would not recommend the Brunner foir DCS without the Arduino solution - which is really very easy to implement and use. I know Chuls has posted to Brunner the opportunity to implement that in CLS2Sim, but there was no response to his posting in the forum

 

The only downside to the Brunner, aside from the obvious cost, is the size, it is large. It cannot be used on the desk it that large and has to be either mounted on the floor with an extension, or as i have on a desk mount - the MonsterTech desk mount. Even then due to the size I cannot use it as center stick and use it on the Right Hand Side of the chair. I do use a 10cm extension, but that is my personal choice for all grips

But what does the mod with Arduino give you additionally, that the standard DCS-plugin does not? Some people claim that eg. F-14 and WWII aircraft have great FFB with all the forces simulated. This would imply that it's a matter of the module having a good FFB-implementation.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot to check again the previously linked topic, it covers it all: 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by zerO_crash

[zerO_crash]

So I got my Brunner, and I absolutely love this thing. It's superb in every aspect! Simply outstanding. Flying with proper trim and effects makes this a game changer on par with VR and Jetseat. To anyone wondering, the joystick has plenty of power (I have Virpil T50 Mongoose CM2 and a 10cm extension, and I never use max power, not even close), doesn't overheat, has the best gimbal that I've ever used, is super-smooth and is an absolute joy to use. Just splendid piece of hardware. You really get what you pay for, and more. 

 

What got me wondering though, is that in DCS under bindings, both "Stick" and "Vjoy" pop up as bindable options for the same device. Now, I don't use the Arduino solution, prefer everything vanilla. Does anyone know the difference between the two? I would suspect that Vjoy-column might give you Vjoy-FFB while the "Stick"-one might lack it? Any idea?

 

Also, does anyone have the advertised gun-recoil in the stick in DCS, again without the Arduino-option? I get G-effects, buffeting and stall shaking, also stick stiffness based on speed (WWII-aircraft, non-hydraulic system), however not the gun-shake.

 

zerO

Edited June 19, 2021 by zerO_crash

[Chuls]

I think what Brunner is saying with the gun-shake support is that if the DCS module has it, it's supported by their software.
Gun-shake is probably something you won't find in many sims as many people consider that gimmicky and prefer to get only what in a real aircraft would be felt through the stick. Of course, in a simulation we don't have the feel of the gun through the seat so it might make sense to make the stick shake.

If you have IL-2 CloD I'd test it with that as I know for sure they do the gun-shake effect. Or maybe just try to search which DCS modules include that so you can check for yourself

[RealDCSpilot]

@zerO_crash The Arduino mod gives full control for DCS over the stick. All you get with Brunner's solution is only stuff from DCS's telemetry output ("just" effects) and Brunners trimming solution is only glued on top of it. With true Directinput FFB, DCS can also control the stick position and move it around. Which is one of the best features i see in FFB in DCS.

Edited June 19, 2021 by RealDCSpilot

[zerO_crash]

4 hours ago, Chuls said:

I think what Brunner is saying with the gun-shake support is that if the DCS module has it, it's supported by their software.
Gun-shake is probably something you won't find in many sims as many people consider that gimmicky and prefer to get only what in a real aircraft would be felt through the stick. Of course, in a simulation we don't have the feel of the gun through the seat so it might make sense to make the stick shake.

If you have IL-2 CloD I'd test it with that as I know for sure they do the gun-shake effect. Or maybe just try to search which DCS modules include that so you can check for yourself

Yeah, thought that it's a gimmick, was just curious if that effect was in. As to feeling the gun, well, with the Jetseat, I feel it. Truly amazing piece of hardware. Can only recommend it. 

 

I only fly DCS, so cannot test it elsewhere, but no problem, I love it as is. The reason I prefer the vanilla implementation, as opposed to your Arduino fix Chuls, is for sheer simplicity in maintaining it all working. I prefer to keep it clean, not a fan of modding in general. Still, it is an awesome piece of software you did there, so good job my man 

 

There is really only one thing that remains to be fixed, before it's perfect: 

 

3 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@zerO_crash The Arduino mod gives full control for DCS over the stick. All you get with Brunner's solution is only stuff from DCS's telemetry output ("just" effects) and Brunners trimming solution is only glued on top of it. With true Directinput FFB, DCS can also control the stick position and move it around. Which is one of the best features i see in FFB in DCS.

 

True indeed, and I love that it works with Brunner's software out of the box. Effects are actually affecting the stick and it's forces, a truly splendid feature. It's good to be back with some quality FFB. It's a game changer.

[RealDCSpilot]

If Brunner would step up and make it a native FFB stick for Directinput i would buy it right away, it's hardware part is surely worth the price. But as long as the software part lacks certain functionality for DCS i'm happy with the modding route i chose for my G940.

[Chuls]

No worries! I would also prefer if standard DirectX effects were supported out of the box as I play a lot of WWII. I even offered Brunner some help in getting it working but no luck for now. Still an amazing product

[RealDCSpilot]

Atm, their products are not targeted for the consumer market anyway. Custom built simulators, for the military or aviation industry are their market, where the Brunner I/O gets deeply integrated. In Germany you'll find them in Eurofighter training simulators for instance.

Edited June 20, 2021 by RealDCSpilot