The new su-35 at LAAD [look the size of those MFD]

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I read it. I'm going to make passing mention that the RuAF isn't happy with R-77 and they want a replacement.

 

AMRAAM users on the other hand seem happy, with billions in R&D and upgrade programs being poured into that missile ... anyone who things the R-77 is 'as good or better' is having a wet dream.

 

But I MUST reiterate that this does NOT mean the following: If you have an AIM-120 you will win against R-77.

That's not what the above means at all. The 120 IS better, it means it is more likely to hit.

 

But if the AIM-120 Pk is 0.9 and the R-77's 0.7, are you going to diss the 77 just because a 120 isn't being fired at you? No. :)

 

As for reliable sources? They're out there for you to find and read between the lines. Rather, your completely, utterly unfounded statement is BS ;)

[Teknetinium]

Il say it again and again If ef2000, jas39 gripen,Su-35 or rafael met in the sky, It would always be a open fight, all of them has their advateges, Its about using them right, that cobra is airshow manover and high angel of atack possibilitys whit thrustvectoring could be discused, Ill guess we all remember F-4s not using gunz, so saying that EF-2000 will never and up in a dogfight is silly. missiles getting better but what we might forget is that plains are getting better defeating them, So I would say that dogfigt is as inportant as having a good weponsystem, if not even more important whe shit hit the fan. :)

[vistrel]

Yeah, I read it. I'm going to make passing mention that the RuAF isn't happy with R-77 and they want a replacement.

As for reliable sources? They're out there for you to find and read between the lines.

 

Link to the source, please, or :

 

Rather, your completely, utterly unfounded statement is BS ;)

[GGTharos]

I told ya - look around. You can find fiscal budgets on AMRAAM improvement programmes, and so on and so forth.

 

I'm still not sure how you came up with the idea that R-77 is 'as good or better than' the 120. This isn't a thing you'll find listed in black and white. Like I said ... the RuAF wants to replace the R-77. They aren't happy with it. That should be telling you something.

[Pilotasso]

And I can tell the same way about Su-30s that some of first built models had problems but are now better. I'd like you to tell about russian poorly built planes to operators of 30-40 yr old airplanes like Mig-21 that still get it up in the air.

 

Mind you when I made critics to any russian plane, wasnt about IOC but rather operational in a sustained manner. I dont care about prototyping problems, not even pre production test examples. ALl I care is fighters in service and that is all that I have been talking about to this time.

 

I dont think Russian Hardware actualy sucks, but that it falls short on certain items that I find fundamentaly important in aereal combat. It has never been like this just like the Mig-21 and Mig-15 historic examples, but airshow and political stunts hardly impresses me but momentainly for having fun wtaching them fly. After all the eyes also eat (like we say here) and it does provide a feast. But thats it. It cannot be extrapolated to operational service as then, the factors that I consider important from the point of view of piloting in a combat enviroment, are totaly different from a bystander attending an airshow in peace time.

 

Cheers! :)

[vistrel]

I told ya - look around. You can find fiscal budgets on AMRAAM improvement programmes, and so on and so forth.

 

I'm still not sure how you came up with the idea that R-77 is 'as good or better than' the 120. This isn't a thing you'll find listed in black and white. Like I said ... the RuAF wants to replace the R-77. They aren't happy with it. That should be telling you something.

 

Yeah, I've heard all that before...everyone can run their mouth without proving anything with some reputable sources. I'm not trying to prove something just wanna see the source.

 

As far as my statement that R-77 is as good or better than Aim-120, here some sources:

 

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/r77.asp

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/aa-12.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-12.htm

 

Still wating for the link to source where RuAF wants to replace R-77 (I wonder what variant ?)

[vistrel]

Mind you when I made critics to any russian plane, wasnt about IOC but rather operational in a sustained manner. I dont care about prototyping problems, not even pre production test examples. ALl I care is fighters in service and that is all that I have been talking about to this time.

 

I dont think Russian Hardware actualy sucks, but that it falls short on certain items that I find fundamentaly important in aereal combat. It has never been like this just like the Mig-21 and Mig-15 historic examples, but airshow and political stunts hardly impresses me but momentainly for having fun wtaching them fly. After all the eyes also eat (like we say here) and it does provide a feast. But thats it. It cannot be extrapolated to operational service as then, the factors that I consider important from the point of view of piloting in a combat enviroment, are totaly different from a bystander attending an airshow in peace time.

 

Cheers! :)

 

Although russian planes are really good at airshows I think it's unfare to automatically assume that they suck in BVR. They may not be the best planes against F-22 but have good enough avionics to wage warfare against 4th generation fighters. Also, keep in mind that not all countries are looking to buy planes to counter F-22. For example, India wants to counter Pakistani AF, etc. Extra manuevrability which is seen at airshows can't be bad. Or you want a simple flying brick with uber avionics ? Dogfight is still not taken out of equation.

[Pilotasso]

My sources are mainly Aviation magazines, my favourite is Airforcesmonthly and not its not a pro US propaganda as they have journalists from all over the world, form Argentina to israel, india, Egypt etc.

 

Unfortunalty I dont have time to search hundreds of articles of the surviving issues I got to prove this to you. Most technical book information on asian Russian designs is outdated. Reputed magazines are your best bet because they also provide inteviews to the actual personel working with the aircraft.

 

We have great internet military news network in Portugal that also covers these matters even if sometimes we have to take a grain of salt when it comes to authors opinions.

 

Heres whats going on in it lately, but I suspect your Portuguese might be a bit rusty :D

http://www.areamilitar.net/

[vistrel]

My sources are mainly Aviation magazines, my favourite is Airforcesmonthly and not its not a pro US propaganda as they have journalists from all over the world, form Argentina to israel, india, Egypt etc.

 

Unfortunalty I dont have time to search hundreds of articles of the surviving issues I got to prove this to you. Most technical book information on asian Russian designs is outdated. Reputed magazines are your best bet because they also provide inteviews to the actual personel working with the aircraft.

 

We have great internet military news network in Portugal that also covers these matters even if sometimes we have to take a grain of salt when it comes to authors opinions.

 

Heres whats going on in it lately, but I suspect your Portuguese might be a bit rusty :D

http://www.areamilitar.net/

 

Oh, I can similarly present many russian websites :D

[Groove]

Could we compare the R-77 to the Aim-120 D ?

 

@GG, do you know if the D version will use AESA radar for guidance.

[GGTharos]

No, I don't think we could ... and I don't know if the D uses AESA.

I guess that would give it somewhat stronger ECCM capability and maybe LPI capability as well, but otherwise the monopulse seeker is fine - er well, replacing the gimbal is also useful - you get rid of seeker settling then, I forgot about that :D

 

What the AIM-120D -does- have that was said publically is a two-way data link, and the possibility of using a 50% bigger rocket.

[Force_Feedback]

lol, those 17inch LCDs are sure a looker.

 

Wonder what the pilot does when he's bored and lonely.

 

In flight .. "movies".

 

Oh, I remember the times we had threads to discuss that aspect of MFDs on the ubi forums, lol.

 

The 'new' Su-35 lacks canards, because the manufacturer said that due to a new flight control system revision the plane is as responsive witout canards as it would have been with them installed.

[TucksonSonny]

I have to point out again you can have a marvelous piece of kit for airshows but with obsolete missiles your "bottlenecked" by them

 

@Pilotasso,

The AA-12/R-77 which is obsolete in your opinion and which already is deployed on India's SU-30MKIs and even the MiG-21 BiS aircraft that caused US aircraft so much trouble at COPE India 2004 & 2005.

 

The mig-21 (40 year old crap?) :D

 

 

@all,

No political intentions but anyway note:

 

EU:

Status of Meteor (ramjet) AESA setup: All tests successfully finished and ready for production (ef2k ready for tranche 3 upgrade)

 

US:

Status of 120C linking AESA: Ok .

Status of 120D linking AESA: Ooh boy…(2008?)

Status 120? ramjet version: Euuhh? Still under development/testing?

 

 

RU:

Status of R77M: ramjet version: still under development/testing

Status AESA linking older R77: Ok .

 

 

BTW: "The 'cobra' maneuver... where the Flanker pitchers [vertically] to over 100 degrees is not a stunt, it is a missile launch maneuver for a over-the-shoulder launch on a passing head-on target by an IMFIL missile, as briefed to me by the Director of TsAGI. German Zagainov."

[GGTharos]

Not sure what you mean by 'linking AESA'.

 

I don't see why you think there's a problem with the 120D ... like anything, it's taking its time to be produced etc :)

 

As for the Cobra maneuver:

That may be fine in 1v1 when your opponent's wingman won't kill you for trying it ... the preference in many v many is to stay fast ... not to slow down for a cobra/hook.

[TucksonSonny]

Not sure what you mean by 'linking AESA'.

 

 

I mean using AESA radar for guidance .

 

 

The PLAAF already received about 200 R77’s in 2002.

It is a wonderful missile which had only one shortage: The missile’s speed was limited to Mach 3 due to excessive nose-cone heating.

(Problem is possible already corrected which give the R77 back the initial Mach4 speed)

[GGTharos]

Ah okay - I was wondering about that because it doesn't seem like a particularly big accomplishment.

 

As for the R-77's nosecone overheating ... what? :D

The R-27ER is a big, and powerful missile - and it's pretty fast too. I'd think they had the overheating issue licked since that ;)

[Force_Feedback]

Is the R-77 using the same nose cone and frequencies as the R-27? ;););) Then no ;)

 

The R-77 is being dropped because Russia doesn't have an industrial base to build the R-77 (the seekers and guidance related stuff is made in Ukraine), that's why they're dropping the R-77 in favor of a new, indigenous missile, to appear when the MFI disaster will start flying (that is in like 10 years, and another 20 to put two dozens in service)

[Alfa]

Is the R-77 using the same nose cone and frequencies as the R-27? ;););) Then no ;)

 

The R-77 is being dropped because Russia doesn't have an industrial base to build the R-77 (the seekers and guidance related stuff is made in Ukraine), that's why they're dropping the R-77 in favor of a new, indigenous missile, to appear when the MFI disaster will start flying (that is in like 10 years, and another 20 to put two dozens in service)

 

I think you might be thinking of the R-27 there FF.

 

The R-77 was developed during Soviet times at a factory in Ukraine, but the RVV-AE(virtually same design as R-77) is currently being offered by Russia as part weapons packages for export fighter deals.

 

Anyway, all the air-to-air missile seekers are/were made by AGAT which is a Russian company :) .

[TucksonSonny]

As for the R-77's nosecone overheating ... what? :D

 

It would not be a pretty sight having a fireball 2nm before impact on the target (anyway it would scare the hell out of the bandit :D ).

[Pilotasso]

indigenous missile, to appear when the MFI disaster will start flying (that is in like 10 years, and another 20 to put two dozens in service)

 

We know nothing of the PAK-FA if its that what your talking about. Untill then theres nothing but speculation.

[Force_Feedback]

I think you might be thinking of the R-27 there FF.

 

The R-77 was developed during Soviet times at a factory in Ukraine, but the RVV-AE(virtually same design as R-77) is currently being offered by Russia as part weapons packages for export fighter deals.

 

Anyway, all the air-to-air missile seekers are/were made by AGAT which is a Russian company :) .

 

And the things that actually get the missile at the general direction of the target, aka the control sections are for sure made by DKB Luch, or at least, they build those things, don't know if they have any customers. I should use my Russian more, any links to useful TVC(jet engine engine) info? Be it American or Russian.

 

Shouldn't the MFI/PAK-FA (they previousely were different projects, and now they're the same?) prototype take flight like by the end of this year? If they're still on schedule, which I doubt, we'll see some pics.

[VVanks]

How come the new Su35 has no canards?

[Pilotasso]

They ditched it because new gen FBW will provide yank and bank perfomance without the need for the canards. This also has the added bonus of having a more clean aircraft aerodynamicaly and maintenance friendlier airframe.

[tflash]

Is it me or is the tailcone even longer in the Su-35?

[Force_Feedback]

And it has dual R-77 mounts between the engines, nice (LOPE meint h4x)

 

And it still has a 'crappy' IRST system with a 60 degree gimbal limit, the new (really new, not upgraded) one of the mig-35 has a 90 degree gimbal limit. A nice plane, too bad the engine development is lagging even more behind today. Let's hope Al-41s successor will be competative. I mean the engines are good for their time, but it seems like the al-31 series has reached its maximum potential.