Max speed for missiles?

[cool_t]

Hi all and greatings to you.

 

A question for all of you.

 

Are the speed limitations modeled correctly in LOMAC?

 

Here is a simple equation for ya.

 

Launch platform (Jet) 1,700mph + (AIM 120) 2,700mph = 6,100 mph-AIM 120(Hypersonic)????????????????????????????????????????

 

I did some mission editing today and was quite unsure of the math. I also did not compare the Mig/Su platforms.

 

Here is some good support for my question Please read the info.

 

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/research/Phoenix/phoenixmissile.html

 

S!

[S77th-GOYA]

Quick answer: no.

[GGTharos]

LOMAC's missiles accelerate to a fixed speed (which increases slightly with altitude).

[D-Scythe]

It's fixed at Mach 3.5 for the AMRAAM I think.

[cool_t]

Well I guess?

 

One thing I know fore sure, with the recent additional awareness of many pilots being able to (BFM) "Basic Fighter Manuvers" threading the neddle becomes a bit more "edgey". and unpredictable.

 

I also have noticed that with speed and higher altitude the "window" opens a bit.

 

:thumbup:

[Pilotasso]

It's fixed at Mach 3.5 for the AMRAAM I think.

 

Its not mach 3.5

 

Speed of sound is not 1000KM/h. ;) Since the missile travels arround 3500Km/h its closer to mach 3. Wich is too low for the actual max speed of the AMRAAM.

[Maciver]

Hmm, so would i be correct in saying that it does you no good to get to a higher speed before releasing?

 

IRL the faster you are going when you release the faster the missle will be going when it burns out. In lomac the missle is going to go the same speed regardless of how fast you are when releasing?

 

If my thoughts are correct, thats dissapointing.

[Force_Feedback]

did some testing, and we have every right to, launched an aim-120 from an F-18 @ 18km and 3200 kph in outdide view... The missile accelerated briefly, but soon slowed down to 3400 kph, until the motor burned out and it start going slower.

[Fox One]

Your thoughts are correct. Regarding missiles in LockOn I’m disappointed for years now ! :D

 

I hope in BS there will be some fixes and the missiles will use energy management like if you launch a certain missile at a certain speed, the missile’s motor (that has a certain total impulse) will use that amount of stored energy to add speed to the speed it got from the launching a/c.

[GGTharos]

There is a WAFM model planned for missiles, but we probably won't see it in BS.

[Groove]

Damn !

 

Not even for bombs ?

[GGTharos]

That I don't know. I'm pretty sure there's not enough time to put missile WAFM in on time for BS - but also keep in mind that I'm a beta tester and I don't really know ED's designs, :)

[Ven]

Hmm, so would i be correct in saying that it does you no good to get to a higher speed before releasing?

 

IRL the faster you are going when you release the faster the missle will be going when it burns out. In lomac the missle is going to go the same speed regardless of how fast you are when releasing?

 

If my thoughts are correct, thats dissapointing.

 

Then why is it that the max/min indicator constantly changes based on my speed? Perhaps the missile don't go faster but burns longer when launched at higher speed?

[EscCtrl]

Then why is it that the max/min indicator constantly changes based on my speed? Perhaps the missile don't go faster but burns longer when launched at higher speed?

 

No that's because you are helping it to acclerate faster as you have launched it at a higher initial speed.

[D-Scythe]

Its not mach 3.5

 

Speed of sound is not 1000KM/h. ;) Since the missile travels arround 3500Km/h its closer to mach 3. Wich is too low for the actual max speed of the AMRAAM.

 

LO's AIM-120 doesn't travel at 3500 kmph until you get high enough (~10 000m IIRC). Moreover, at 10 000+ m, Mach 1 is roughly 1000 kmph.

[cool_t]

Ok now we are getting some where

 

I think that they will fix the "obvious" issues with the missiles.

 

I realy love this game and to tell you the truth with some of the new sims

that will be comming out soon, ED will have no choice but to fix "obvious" issues or LOMAC will Die in 5 years. perhaps thats why it is taking so long for the release of "Black Shark"

 

So back to the Question. I was on Turkish Airforces server and I did some variable attacks, low speed/low alt- high speed/ high alt and the conclution is simple as it was stated by many people; undermodeled missiles from the launch platform.

 

At 45,000ft Mach 1.7 the Aim 120 barly reaches 8 miles from my F-15 when it slows down. In the upper Troposphere drag and frictonal compression is weak at best, but the aerodynamics of the Aim 120 react like it is pushing through mudd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That defeats the whole purpose of a high speed interceptor.

 

I wish that ED and/or WAGS would be a bit more attentive to our questions and concerns. For we buy the game and hope for the best realisim and we know that all they need to do is fix a few lines in the programming. They could give us most of our "realistic" fixes in a 40 hour work time frame including breaks for lunch.

 

Its not that hard to fix the program and by god the 120s in 1.1 were like 10 trillion times more effective than in FC. (reguarless of player skill)

 

Sorry guys im just a bit frustrated due to the fact that when I see a formation of 3 migs 20 miles away(With a HUGE closure rate) from me and Im going Mach 1.7 there is a good chance that after the Migs get the launch warning they have plenty of time to move out of the way.

:mad:

[Ven]

Which new sims are coming out soon?

[D-Scythe]

Sorry guys im just a bit frustrated due to the fact that when I see a formation of 3 migs 20 miles away(With a HUGE closure rate) from me and Im going Mach 1.7 there is a good chance that after the Migs get the launch warning they have plenty of time to move out of the way.

:mad:

 

Well, realistically, the Rtr range for the AMRAAM doesn't extend out to 20 miles, so IMO it's actually a good thing that the MiGs can run if they want to. Although, the -29 seems to be awfully over-powered from what I've seen.

 

But yes, you're right in that the Slammer is consistently underperforming - you should more than double the AMRAAM's effective range if you're going so high and fast.

[cool_t]

D-scythe

 

Rgr, S!

 

Ok, lets just pretend that an F-15 and Mig 29 are head on at 40,000ft and the F-15 shoots an Aim 120 a unknown range.

 

F-15 Mach 1.7 + Aim 120 Mach 3.5 = Mach 5.2

 

Now this,

 

( F-15 Mach 1.7 + Aim 120 Mach 3.5 )+( Mig 29 Mach 1.4) = 6.6 Mach

 

So if we do the math at 10nm 20nm 30nm 40nm we should get some relitive closure rates and time to impact.

Obviously the 120s motor will run out but we get the idea of closure rates.

[S77th-GOYA]

F-15 Mach 1.7 + Aim 120 Mach 3.5 = Mach 5.2

 

It's not quite that simple. The velocity is squared in the drag equation. Even something as slick as a missile can create very heavy drag forces at very high velocities. So Vmax is increased with the launching platform's speed, but not simply a+b=c.

 

But whether you look at it simplistically or realistically, the modelling still needs work.

[Maciver]

But hey we are getting a helicopter!

 

Sorry guys its gonna have to wait after blackshark too, because the next project is adding AFM to the AWACS and making it flyable.

 

 

 

Sorry i had too :)

[D-Scythe]

Rgr, S!

 

Ok, lets just pretend that an F-15 and Mig 29 are head on at 40,000ft and the F-15 shoots an Aim 120 a unknown range.

 

F-15 Mach 1.7 + Aim 120 Mach 3.5 = Mach 5.2

 

Listen to Goya. It's not a simple matter of adding velocities - drag increases in an exponential fashion as velocity increases. And while it is true that the AMRAAM does obviously underperform in LO, it's not to the point where it can reach out and tag a MiG-29 that split-s's the other way at the moment of launch.

[cool_t]

Right

 

In the situation I gave you the mig does not do a split S.

 

All I am trying to say is that at what ever the altitude, speed, of the fighter jet and at the point of relase of a missile (cumilative speeds)

 

Jet speed + missile speed = ?

 

Jet speed + missile speed + incomming bandit (That does not move)=closure rate

 

No more no less. Just the simple fact that in LOMAC high speed interceptors can not perform there missions.

 

Now when I think about it, in 169th I some times will go for the a-50 and I will be with in 20nm at point of fox 3.

 

My speeds in the F-15 are at Mach 1.8(40k) + Aim 120 speed + closure rate of A-50. I will stay locked untill active signature on the 120, ecm, chaff, ect, then fox 3 at 15nm. Now granted the A-50 BMF's to avoid the 120 but now that I have done more mission editing, I and many other people have concluded the underperformance of the Aim 120.

 

Now the next question is are all missiles in LOMAC undermodled?

 

Ok please read the info in this link.

 

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/research/Phoenix/phoenixmissile.html

 

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/aim-120.htm

 

 

Thanks for your time,

 

Torrey

[GGTharos]

Cool_t ... old issue, on the list ...