BlackShark and laser designation

[amalahama]

It's possible to designate targets in BlackShark with the laser for others human/AI helicopters/airplanes?? I think it would be cool for multiplayer gaming, a Ka-50 designate targets with the laser for Su-25T, so they can shoot the Vikhr safety and they haven't to approach to the targets, which is a lot of dangerous sometimes.

 

Regards

[159th_Viper]

.....a Ka-50 designate targets with the laser for Su-25T, so they can shoot the Vikhr safety and they haven't to approach to the targets, which is a lot of dangerous sometimes.

 

Regards

 

The 9A4172 Missile is a Beam Rider, ie it "Rides" the Laser Beam emanating from the Launch Aircraft's Targeting system down to the Designated Target......without the Laser the Missile will just go Ballistic so No, you will not be able to do what you are suggesting.

[amalahama]

The 9A4172 Missile is a Beam Rider, ie it "Rides" the Laser Beam emanating from the Launch Aircraft's Targeting system down to the Designated Target......without the Laser the Missile will just go Ballistic so No, you will not be able to do what you are suggesting.

 

What do you mean with "Beam Rider"?? You can't see a electromagentics wave (Laser for example), you (or a sensor) only see the surface where the beam "collide". So, IRL, I think a Vikhr can be iluminated for other aircraft/infantry. You have to be carefull with the launch in the proper actitude, I think.

 

Regards

[Pilotasso]

Its a missing feature, as laser ammunitions can be designated by any external source including commandoes on the groud. "Beam riding" aplies to SARH missiles.

[159th_Viper]

Once the Prichal laser designates the Target and the Missile is fired, the missile detects the laser beam by virtue of two receiving sensors in the missile's tail.

 

Whilst flying towards the target the Missile accordingly attempts to keep the Laser centered between the two receiving sensors by virtue of a steering servo motor - hence it rolls around it's longitudinal axis in flight "Riding the Beam" to Target.

[amalahama]

Once the Prichal laser designates the Target and the Missile is fired, the missile detects the laser beam by virtue of two receiving sensors in the missile's tail.

 

Whilst flying towards the target the Missile accordingly attempts to keep the Laser centered between the two receiving sensors by virtue of a steering servo motor - hence it rolls around it's longitudinal axis in flight "Riding the Beam" to Target.

 

Yeah, it's correct and true, but the sensor look the laser reflection of the surface target; nor the laser as is.

 

Regards

[britgliderpilot]

Yeah, it's correct and true, but the sensor look the laser reflection of the surface target; nor the laser as is.

 

Regards

 

I think you must have misread that explanation - the sensor doesn't look for the laser reflection from the surface target on the Vikhr.

 

It looks backwards at the launching aircraft . . . . perhaps an unusual way of doing things, but that's the way it works.

[159th_Viper]

Yeah, it's correct and true, but the sensor look the laser reflection of the surface target; nor the laser as is.

 

Do not Confuse Laser Guidance

 

"Laser guidance is a technique of guiding a missile or other projectile or vehicle to a target by means of a laser beam. Some laser guided systems utilise beam riding guidance, but most operate more similarly to semi-active radar homing (SARH). This technique is sometimes called SALH, for Semi-Active Laser Homing. With this technique, a laser is kept pointed at the target and the laser radiation bounces off the target and is scattered in all directions. The missile, bomb, etc. is launched or dropped somewhere near the target. When it is close enough that some of the reflected laser energy from the target reaches it, a laser seeker notices which direction this energy is coming from and aims the projectile towards the source. As long as the projectile is in the right general area and the laser is kept aimed at the target, the projectile should be guided accurately to the target.

Note that laser guidance isn't useful against targets that don't reflect much laser energy, including those coated in special paint which absorbs laser energy. This is likely to be widely used by advanced military vehicles in order to make it harder to use laser range-finders against them and harder to hit them with laser-guided munitions."

 

with Beam Riding

 

"Beam-riding, also known as beam guidance, is a technique of directing a missile to its target by means of radar or a laser beam. It is one of the simplest forms of guidance using radar or lasers.

The main use of this kind of system is to destroy airplanes or tanks. First, an aiming station (possibly mounted in a vehicle) in the launching area directs a narrow radar or laser beam at the enemy aircraft or tank. Then, the missile is launched and at some point after launch is "gathered" by the radar or laser beam when it flies into it. From this stage onwards, the missile attempts to keep itself inside the beam, while the aiming station keeps the beam pointing at the target. The missile, controlled by a computer inside it, "rides" the beam to the target. The aiming station can also use the radar returns of the beam bouncing off the target to track it, or it can be tracked optically or by some other means."

[Black_Hawk]

Makes it a little bit more resistant to smoke screens :)

[TekaTeka]

Makes it a little bit more resistant to smoke screens :)

 

and laser absorbing materials on advanced military vehicles.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Reffering to Shkval-Vikrh-Laser solution in the Ka-50

 

If i understand correctly the Vikrh tail sensors detect laser emission from the Prichal complex onboard the Ka-50. This sensors send inputs to the motor guidance to " stay inside " the laser beam received by sensors.

 

The Shkval system feed the aimming information about target position.

 

Now the questions?

 

The laser are aimed at the target in any form? The Prichal laser system emissions " touch " the objective in any form or only Shkval optical system device is used to achive target possition information?

 

If this is true a vehicle or tank with laser warning receivers cant detect a Shkval-Prichel-Vikrha combo attacking it?

[159th_Viper]

 

The laser are aimed at the target in any form? The Prichal laser system emissions " touch " the objective in any form or only Shkval optical system device is used to achive target possition information?

 

If this is true a vehicle or tank with laser warning receivers cant detect a Shkval-Prichel-Vikrha combo attacking it?

 

The Laser - Rangefinder "paints" the Target for lack of as better word - however Laser Warning Receivers can usually not detect the Laser painting it, so I would say Yes to your second question.

 

"Laser beam-riding missiles are particularly hard to detect because they use low power lasers. Most laser warning systems produced so far can not detect laser beam-riding missiles because of their weak emissions which have signals less than 1% of laser range finder power . They are even harder to defeat because current counter-measures are not designed to work against this threat."

 

Link

[amalahama]

Well, so, If I understand well, a "usually" laser missile works aiming to the surface reflectance cone of the laser beam:

 

 

But, the Vikhr missile, or "Laser beam-riding missiles" in reality are aiming with a no-narrow laser, so the missile can try to catch the dispersed signal of the laser.

 

 

(hey the Paint pictures take me a while lol)

 

It's correct? I'm think the russian style is a little resctricted about launch parameter, but it has some advantages as well. I understand why can't to designate targets for our Su-25T :cry:

 

However, they have some others laser missile no-beam ridding as well...

 

Regards

[britgliderpilot]

Nope, you're still misunderstanding it.

 

 

The sensors on the Vikhr look BACKWARDS at the aircraft - not at the target at all.

 

 

See this quote from the Flaming Cliffs manual:

 

TACTICAL MISSILES

“Air-to-surface” missiles employ a variety of different guidance systems. Non-emitting “passive” systems include television (TV) and imaging infrared (IIR) homing. Such optically guided weapons make use of a television display in the cockpit. The pilot locates, identifies and locks the target via a magnified optical image seen by the missile seeker. “Active” systems include radar homing, in which the missile illuminates the target with radio waves and homes on reflected signals.

 

“Semi-active” laser guidance systems home on reflected laser signals instead of radar. The laser illuminator used to designate the target is located either on board the shooting aircraft, or on the ground (e.g. with a Forward Air Controller or “FAC”). In the first case the pilot selects the target and provides laser illumination during the missile's entire time of flight (TOF). In the second case an off-board system (e.g. another aircraft, helicopter or FAC) selects the target and provides illumination, affording free maneuver to the shooting aircraft after launching the missile.

 

The Russian “Vikhr” anti-tank missile employs laser “beam-rider” guidance. Unlike the Kh-25L and Kh-29L missiles, which are equipped with semi-active laser homing seekers in the nosecone, the 9A4172 “Vikhr” does not have any seeker in the nose. Instead, sensors are mounted in the tail of the missile, near the rocket motor nozzles. These sensors detect the laser beam emitted by the carrier aircraft and follow it directly to the target.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Very good Amalahama Nice and comprehensive graphics

 

If the laser beam is wide like in your second graphic it is easy to understand the spiral trayectory of the Vikrha to the target.

 

But one thing i dont understand.

 

If the laser beam sensors of the missile are in the tail, how it is possible for it to see the laser beam to guide it to the target?

 

uff Britgliderpilot is faster replying than me tiping, but the question is in the air...

 

The laser beam form the Ka-50 focuse on the target directed by Shkval optical system inputs and the tail sensors of the Vikhr detect and guide the missile? How can the sensors see the beam at the tail?

[amalahama]

Nope, you're still misunderstanding it.

 

 

The sensors on the Vikhr look BACKWARDS at the aircraft - not at the target at all.

 

Yes britgliderpilot, I understand these. In my second picture, the sensor is lookin the Ka-50, but, if the missile wants to catch the beam, the laser has to hit the sensor directly (It's impossible detect "the laser/radar/light/other eletromagnetic wave ray" if these doesn't hit you), so a no-so-narrow beam is required for the aiming of the vikhr, I think.

 

Regards

[amalahama]

The laser beam form the Ka-50 focuse on the target directed by Shkval optical system inputs and the tail sensors of the Vikhr detect and guide the missile? How can the sensors see the beam at the tail?

 

If the Laser emitts a no-narrow beam (a little more omni and not so focused) is possible to the tail sensor detect the beam. If the laser emits a narrow beam, like amercan laser desgnator do, I think is impossible this kind of guide...

 

Regards

[britgliderpilot]

Very good Amalahama Nice and comprehensive graphics

 

If the laser beam is wide like in your second graphic it is easy to understand the spiral trayectory of the Vikrha to the target.

 

But one thing i dont understand.

 

If the laser beam sensors of the missile are in the tail, how it is possible for it to see the laser beam to guide it to the target?

 

uff Britgliderpilot is faster replying than me tiping, but the question is in the air...

 

The laser beam form the Ka-50 focuse on the target directed by Shkval optical system inputs and the tail sensors of the Vikhr detect and guide the missile? How can the sensors see the beam at the tail?

 

 

Quoting the Flaming Cliffs manual again:

 

The missile detects the laser beam and attempts to keep it centered between two receiving sensors in the tail while flying towards the target. The missile has only one servo motor for steering, so it rolls around its longitudinal axis in flight, continuously correcting pitch and yaw in turn. This rotating motion gives the missile a distinctive spiral trajectory.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Yes i read the manual and it is very clear but only said " detect the laser beam " but not said how and from where.

 

Maybe in the link mentioned i find the answer.

 

 

If this is the guidance system for the Vikhr then i understand well how it works.

 

But then the Laser dont touch at all the target, only the OPTICAL system ( Shkval ) see the target and adjust the guidance laser that the missile follow to the vehicle.

[britgliderpilot]

If this is the guidance system for the Vikhr then i understand well how it works.

 

But then the Laser dont touch at all the target, only the OPTICAL system ( Shkval ) see the target and adjust the guidance laser that the missile follow to the vehicle.

 

I think we've come full circle now . . . .

 

Yes - the Shkval sees the target and points the laser beam at it.

 

The missile travels down the beam, looking backwards from the sensors in the tail.

 

The beam probably does touch the target - it's aimed in that direction, after all, and unless the beam is REALLY small there's not much chance that the missile will block the laser energy from reaching the target.

 

 

. . . I'm not quite sure what you're asking here, though.

[Esac_mirmidon]

LOL The circle is closed now.

 

Your troubles to understand me are because my poor english.. sorry for that.

 

My initial intention was to know the way that the Ka-50 engage targets with the Shkval-Prichel-Vikrh combo. And most af all if the laser energy reachs the target in any form and if this amount of energy is enough to start a Laser Warning Receiver.

 

But now it is clear.

 

Shkval system engage visually the target and feed data to the Prichel System enabling a laser beam cone ( i dont know how intense, deep, wide is ) that " in rear view " the tail sensors of the Vikrh detect.

 

With this info the only motor of the missile fly a conical pattern to the target until the impact.

 

If the laser beam cone is wide enough it could reach the target but if it is weak enough the LWR of the vehicle couldnt detect it.

 

A hard to defect system by vehicles but with one weak point. It needs OPTICAL adquisition on the target by the Shkval and also in daylight conditions it is possible to generate a smoke screen, terrain masking, trees that cuts the optical sight of view.

 

Another interesting info could be the capabilities of the Shkval sight visor to discriminate partial obstacles like trees or so and lock targets visually.

 

Thanks a lot Brit and the rest for your kind answers

[amalahama]

LOL The circle is closed now.

 

Your troubles to understand me are because my poor english.. sorry for that.

 

My initial intention was to know the way that the Ka-50 engage targets with the Shkval-Prichel-Vikrh combo. And most af all if the laser energy reachs the target in any form and if this amount of energy is enough to start a Laser Warning Receiver.

 

But now it is clear.

 

Shkval system engage visually the target and feed data to the Prichel System enabling a laser beam cone ( i dont know how intense, deep, wide is ) that " in rear view " the tail sensors of the Vikrh detect.

 

With this info the only motor of the missile fly a conical pattern to the target until the impact.

 

If the laser beam cone is wide enough it could reach the target but if it is weak enough the LWR of the vehicle couldnt detect it.

 

A hard to defect system by vehicles but with one weak point. It needs OPTICAL adquisition on the target by the Shkval and also in daylight conditions it is possible to generate a smoke screen, terrain masking, trees that cuts the optical sight of view.

 

Another interesting info could be the capabilities of the Shkval sight visor to discriminate partial obstacles like trees or so and lock targets visually.

 

Thanks a lot Brit and the rest for your kind answers

 

Bien dicho gallego!! :D

 

But I think the LWR are more effective with narrow beam, not with wide beam laser. A wide beam laser is more difficult to differenciate from a point light source (a lamp, for example). So, I think the wide beam is the key, and for that, the Beam riding missile are difficult to spot with LWR. However, a wide beam gives less precision and less range, so you should ajust this for correct performance.

 

Regards

[Weta43]

I guess when it comes to guidance - with a standard 'illuminated target' guidance system, if the target shrouds itself in smoke then your beam is going to be dispersed in the smoke (as is its reflection), the intensity of the reflection will fall drastically, reducing launchable distance & if launched at distance before the smoke is deployed, your missile might well lose guidance.

With the beam rider, as long as the aiming system's gyroscopes hold the beam still, the missile will land at least where you aimed it, though the optical system may lose its lock on the target. Presumably the pilot could then make small corrections to where they thought the target had moved to & walk the vihkr in...

[britgliderpilot]

I guess when it comes to guidance - with a standard 'illuminated target' guidance system, if the target shrouds itself in smoke then your beam is going to be dispersed in the smoke (as is its reflection), the intensity of the reflection will fall drastically, reducing launchable distance & if launched at distance before the smoke is deployed, your missile might well lose guidance.

With the beam rider, as long as the aiming system's gyroscopes hold the beam still, the missile will land at least where you aimed it, though the optical system may lose its lock on the target. Presumably the pilot could then make small corrections to where they thought the target had moved to & walk the vihkr in...

 

. . . . until the missile enters the cloud of smoke and can't see the beam anymore.

 

Nothing's foolproof, of course. All SALH and beam-rider missiles still suffer from the key problem that you can only attack one target at a time . . . . which is why the Apache Longbow's rippling 16 Hellfires at individual targets is such a fantastic capability.

 

It's sometimes easy to forget that the Ka50 first flew in 1982 . . . . it's pretty old now.

[EvilBivol-1]

Unfortunately, it is even more complicated. :)

 

The system actually has two laser beams that scan horizontally and vertically to form the "cone" in which the missile flies. The missile is designed to extrapolate its position within the cone based on a standard cone size (7 meters in radius or diameter IIRC :dunno:). So the system actually narrows the emission angle as the missile travels out, to keep the cone size around the missile at a constant size.