Su-33 double lock

[otester]

In manual it says Su-33 is only plane that can track 2 targets at same time.

 

How do I do this? (Everytime I try it and unlock to lock another aircraft the 1st missile stops working).

[Pilotasso]

As far as I can tell you cant. Never heard of such capability being simualted.

[otester]

As far as I can tell you cant. Never heard of such capability being simualted.

 

Darn it lol.

[CoNa]

Not on Su-33 but it works fine with F15 if you use TWS mode. Lock first one then the other. Fire aim-120 and you will have (hopefully) a double score.

[Ironhand]

In manual it says Su-33 is only plane that can track 2 targets at same time.

 

How do I do this? (Everytime I try it and unlock to lock another aircraft the 1st missile stops working).

It's the Russian version of TWS and can be done on the Su-27 as well (MiG-29, too??). While in this mode, the system keeps track of multiple aircraft and, then, locks the one it feels is the greatest threat once it's within launch parameters. The system then drops into lock mode for that aircraft. All other aircraft disappear from the HUD and the missile tracks toward that single aircraft. You cannot have multiple aircraft targeted.

 

Rich

[nscode]

Yes, but you should be able to engage 2 at the same time. No one knows for sure how it's achieved :(

[Alfa]

Yes, but you should be able to engage 2 at the same time. No one knows for sure how it's achieved :(

 

No you shouldn't :) .

[Dudikoff]

Yes, but you should be able to engage 2 at the same time. No one knows for sure how it's achieved :(

 

You're thinking of MiG-29 9.13S with R-77 missiles.

[Pilotasso]

No, apaprently some Flanker derivatives can do a time shared multiple firings of R-27's at more than one target. Those missiles have datalink. I suspect, like others that this consists in having more than one missile missile lauched both in datalinked mode, as the first missile lauched aproaches its target the radar swiches briefly into STT on that target, when that target is reached by the missile, the radar then searches and locks into the second (probably via estimated target-radar antenna positioning) swiching the second missile into STT mode from datalinked mode.

The Su-33 IRL is quite different from the basic 27, the russians are much more protective about it than the 27. They even dynamited one under the sea after a crash in order not to let it to be recovered by anyone else.

 

In my analysis is that this mode of operating R-27's is not ideal, it requires the launcher vulnerable even more time than a single R-27 launch, and this principle works best with active missiles where true multi engagement capability is more efective.

[nscode]

Yes, but it could come in handy nevertheless. It isn't always fighters it would be targeting. It would work nicely against cruise missiles, I suppose.

[TorwaK]

In manual it says Su-33 is only plane that can track 2 targets at same time.

 

How do I do this? (Everytime I try it and unlock to lock another aircraft the 1st missile stops working).

 

You can do it manually but you shouldn't if you don't carry R-37 missiles with you. :)

[Alfa]

No, apaprently some Flanker derivatives can do a time shared multiple firings of R-27's at more than one target. Those missiles have datalink.

 

The R-27R and R-27RE have datalink - but they are both SARH.

 

I suspect, like others that this consists in having more than one missile missile lauched both in datalinked mode, as the first missile lauched aproaches its target the radar swiches briefly into STT on that target, when that target is reached by the missile, the radar then searches and locks into the second (probably via estimated target-radar antenna positioning) swiching the second missile into STT mode from datalinked mode.

 

LOL...

 

Pilotasso you can only launch radar guided missiles from the SUV-27 and SUV-33(virtually the same thing) via STT mode - this means only one target is displayed.

 

The Su-33 IRL is quite different from the basic 27, the russians are much more protective about it than the 27.

 

No it isn't. As far as the WCS and radar they are all but identical - the only difference has to do with the EOS, which is an improved version on the Su-33.

 

They even dynamited one under the sea after a crash in order not to let it to be recovered by anyone else.

 

Yes but reportedly the aircraft in question was one of the airframes for which the SPO-15 RWR had been replaced by the new "Pastel" system, which is very different from the SPO-15......and classified ;) .

 

In my analysis is that this mode of operating R-27's is not ideal, it requires the launcher vulnerable even more time than a single R-27 launch, and this principle works best with active missiles where true multi engagement capability is more efective.

 

It only works with ARH missiles - i.e. when these can be launched from TWS mode where several tracked are being tracked at a time and where the missile seekers don't require the radar to illuminate the targets for them at terminal stage of engagement.

 

In order to be able to engage multiple targets simultaneously with SARH missiles, you would need a radar with electronically steered beam(such as the Zaslon of the MiG-31), but the Su-33 retains the exact same mechanically steered N001 cassegrain radar as the Su-27.

[mcnab]

No you shouldn't :) .

 

Well, it says so in the manual, so you must be wrong. :D

[Ironhand]

Well, it says so in the manual, so you must be wrong. :D

Really? I'm curious about where you're reading that. The radar system chart (pg 115) states that the number of simultaneously attacked targets for the N-001 and N-019 radars is "1". And in discussing TWS it only speaks of locking a single target and goes to great pains to state that the target must remain locked throughout the missile's flight (pg 231).

 

Rich

[Pilotasso]

The R-27R and R-27RE have datalink - but they are both SARH.

 

 

 

LOL...

 

Pilotasso you can only launch radar guided missiles from the SUV-27 and SUV-33(virtually the same thing) via STT mode - this means only one target is displayed.

 

Yes I know it guides on STT, however serveral sopurces state that it can be donne by sharing target data to one missile at a time. Im not sure how or if thats possible at all, I just speculated one way that it could be donne though its admitely prone to failiure of re-aquisition on the part of the SU's radar for the lock STT for the second missile (depending on how predictable the targets flight path would be compared to a computer estimate).

 

Another thing that that I learned recently is that there are a few engagement mode that are highly classified that are never told to the public. I came across something for the Block 15 OCU F-16 that defies the common knowelege of the general public. Unfortunaly Im am not at the liberty to even discuss it as the type is still in operation. The thing I was talking about the flanker would be in the same line of hidden capabilities.

In order to be able to engage multiple targets simultaneously with SARH missiles, you would need a radar with electronically steered beam(such as the Zaslon of the MiG-31), but the Su-33 retains the exact same mechanically steered N001 cassegrain radar as the Su-27.

 

Some radars only require a better signal processor and targetting computer to radicaly improve it without the change of the radar array at all, including multi target TWS engagement. Thing is thats precisly what the russians lacked for a long time. Now that they do have the electronics, they might as well improve the rest of the radar alltoguether.

[mcnab]

Really? I'm curious about where you're reading that. The radar system chart (pg 115) states that the number of simultaneously attacked targets for the N-001 and N-019 radars is "1". And in discussing TWS it only speaks of locking a single target and goes to great pains to state that the target must remain locked throughout the missile's flight (pg 231).

 

Rich

 

I was referring to the first post about the Su-33's capabilities. Didn't check the manual but I believe the poster.

[otester]

Only Su-33 does 2, Su-27 only does 1.

 

For those that have the leather manual it's bottom of page 125.

[Alfa]

Only Su-33 does 2, Su-27 only does 1.

 

Ths Su-33 and Su-27 have the same radar - NIIP N001 :) .

 

For those that have the leather manual it's bottom of page 125.

 

Sounds like old mistakes from the Flanker manual carried over to the initial Lock-on one :) .

[Pilotasso]

my give up! :D

[otester]

Ths Su-33 and Su-27 have the same radar - NIIP N001 :) .

 

Btw, N001 is not just one radar, it's a series, and has many variants such as:

 

N001V (Su-33),

N001VE (Su-30MKK/Su-33),

N001VEP (Su-30MK2/Su-33).

 

As you can see, Su-33 can use all of them so finding which one would fit in LOMAC time frame is a bit of a pain :)

 

 

 

I quote:

 

Air Combat Basics 125

 

Searching for Targets

 

The Su-27 carries a very powerful radar, but can only provide weapons tracking information against one target at a time. The Su-33, however , can provide weapon targeting and launch solutions for two targets simultaneously. Ideally, long-range counter-air missions should always include AWACS support. With AWACS information datalinked directly to the Flanker, enemy aircraft will be painted on the MFD even if the Flanker's radar is inactive. Keeping the Flanker's radar deactivated reduces the chances of being detected by the enemy aircraft (remember enemy aircraft can detect your radar transmissions about two times farther away than....

[Alfa]

In order to be able to engage multiple targets simultaneously with SARH missiles, you would need a radar with electronically steered beam(such as the Zaslon of the MiG-31), but the Su-33 retains the exact same mechanically steered N001 cassegrain radar as the Su-27.

 

Some radars only require a better signal processor and targetting computer to radicaly improve it without the change of the radar array at all, including multi target TWS engagement. Thing is thats precisly what the russians lacked for a long time. Now that they do have the electronics, they might as well improve the rest of the radar alltoguether.

 

Pilotasso - we were talking about simultaneous engagement of two targets with SARH missiles :) . In this connection the problem is not with "stacking" multiple targets for engagement in TWS nor to separate datalink transmissions to inflight missiles - the problem is how to support the missiles' SARH seekers at terminal stage.

 

For mechanically scanned radars this involves physically turning the antenna in order to move the beam between targets - which needless to say would decrease the frequency of reflected energy(required for the SARH seekers) from each target as opposed to keeping only one target "illuminated" throughout.

[Alfa]

 

Btw, N001 is not just one radar, it's a series, and has many variants such as:

 

N001V (Su-33),

N001VE (Su-30MKK/Su-33),

N001VEP (Su-30MK2/Su-33).

 

As you can see, Su-33 can use all of them so finding which one would fit in LOMAC time frame is a bit of a pain :)

 

No it isn't - the Su-33 has the plain vanilla N001 :) .

 

The N001V is a later upgrade(varies stages) first incorporated into the Su-30MKK for China and recently also part of the upgrade program for Su-27s in Russian service(Su-27UBM and Su-27SM). However, there is no mention of such an upgrade being carried out for the Su-33s.

 

If we were to consider what could be carried by the Su-33, there are other alternatives than upgraded N001 radars - such as varies variants of the the Zhuk radar.

[nscode]

Here's how it could go: First missile goes from link to homing. Antenna is then fixed to its target. Second one is fired and is updated via link with the calculated (at this point your radar doesn't know the second target's actual whereabouts, but can plot (guess) it using data gathered during TWS) position of second target. First missile hits before second even finishes datalink stage, the radar reacquires second target, and is free to guide it rest of the way. No jittery antenna movements required :)

 

 

Again, this would only be of any use at very long ranges, against non-maneuvering targets.

[otester]

Maybe it isn't so much the radar but the computer that handles everything? :book:

[Dudikoff]

Second one is fired and is updated via link with the calculated (at this point your radar doesn't know the second target's actual whereabouts, but can plot (guess) it using data gathered during TWS) position of second target. First missile hits before second even finishes datalink stage, the radar reacquires second target, and is free to guide it rest of the way.

 

I don't think it has INS so it needs constant target updates and since the radar determines them, it can only get them if the radar is in STT mode.