Discussing stealth

[GGTharos]

And the ones that are coming online now are fully coated too, more than likely ... F-22/F-35. New materials.

[TucksonSonny]

Maybe a little bit naive from me but military satellites can see everything nowadays.

A datalink between satellite and the military jets can’t be that hard…

Even satellite-internet and video on demand via satellite is common (once the connection is established it is fast enough).

[GGTharos]

Maybe a little bit naive from me but military satellites can see everything nowadays.

 

... Like weapons of mass destruction? Your whereabouts? Nope ... they can't. ;)

 

A datalink between satellite and the military jets can’t be that hard…

 

... no, it does exist for communication.

Even satellite-internet and video on demand via satellite is common (once the connection is established it is fast enough).

 

Not the same thing ;)

[TucksonSonny]

... Like weapons of mass destruction? Your whereabouts? Nope ... they can't. ;)

 

 

 

... no, it does exist for communication.

[/font]

 

 

Not the same thing ;)

 

 

Thus that movie “enemy of the state” was crap? :D

[Slaunyeh]

And the ones that are coming online now are fully coated too, more than likely ... F-22/F-35. New materials.

 

Pentagon is awesomely struggling to implement those 2.

So far they haven´t found a justification for them and most of all their prices.

You can bet they won´t come in the next 10 years i´d say... Unless USA set up some AIR harbor, to move public opinion.

[tflash]

Stealth not only consists of passive means, but also of active ones; and not only of design, but also tactics.

 

- supercruise is a very important element of stealth in the F-22. It's not only that you see it way to late, but that it is no longer there when you finally have spotted it! It essentially can flycircles around a lot of the opposition, deciding to engage or disengage at will. Supercruise is a stealth multiplier.

 

- information superiority. The best way to stay undetected is to keep out of the range of enemy sensors. The F-16 can already do this with its great HSD, the F-22 takes this to another level and the F-117 did exactly that: flying AROUND the threads. The fact that they had the means to detect, classify, track and "measure" the threat emitters is as important to stealth as RAM or airframe design.

 

After the age of radar comes the age of information. Think of radar as something of the pre-digital age, the primitive societies that manned the earth till the 20th century. Just like an electrical guitar has something pathetic compared with pure digital music, aluminium aircraft and analog radar technology are part of history now. Something for aviation history enthousiasts to play in Lockon.

[GGTharos]

There's never enough justification for a dedicated fighter. Even in the cold war, the F-15 was facing opposition for example. It's just more of the same, different plane.

 

Pentagon is awesomely struggling to implement those 2.

So far they haven´t found a justification for them and most of all their prices.

You can bet they won´t come in the next 10 years i´d say... Unless USA set up some AIR harbor, to move public opinion.

[Slaunyeh]

Stealth not only consists of passive means, but also of active ones; and not only of design, but also tactics.

 

- supercruise is a very important element of stealth in the F-22. It's not only that you see it way to late, but that it is no longer there when you finally have spotted it! It essentially can flycircles around a lot of the opposition, deciding to engage or disengage at will. Supercruise is a stealth multiplier.

 

- information superiority. The best way to stay undetected is to keep out of the range of enemy sensors. The F-16 can already do this with its great HSD, the F-22 takes this to another level and the F-117 did exactly that: flying AROUND the threads. The fact that they had the means to detect, classify, track and "measure" the threat emitters is as important to stealth as RAM or airframe design.

 

After the age of radar comes the age of information. Think of radar as something of the pre-digital age, the primitive societies that manned the earth till the 20th century. Just like an electrical guitar has something pathetic compared with pure digital music, aluminium aircraft and analog radar technology are part of history now. Something for aviation history enthousiasts to play in Lockon.

 

 

LOL your implying that all nations should drop radar ?

You can still do a lot of stuff with an electric guitar fast enought that´ll take ages for digital monkeys beating a keyboard mixer accoupled to a hard drive to reproduce.

 

Thats only the old armour VS can oppener struggle... When it´ll really matter someone will find a way to pinpoint more effectively stealth, and then the cycle will start again.

Being able to fly around mean nothing if you can´t fly around. Pinpoinment of gaps in ennemy detection capability is an old stuff, and must be taken with care as it can be a trap.

Information superiority is good only if there´s something to be known.

 

Supercruise is fast but thats only speed, lenght of travel, it has nothing to do with radar but with IR, you don´t travel faster than radar waves.. not yet.

 

Althought what you say make sense, RAM and design are still more important than what you said. Those are only consequence of the using of RAM+ Design.

[Slaunyeh]

There's never enough justification for a dedicated fighter. Even in the cold war, the F-15 was facing opposition for example. It's just more of the same, different plane.

 

Yes there is.. cost/effectiveness/Usefullness.

When cost reach space high, and necessity is difficult to be fully seen, then implementation is hazardous.

 

In cold war there was real threat from classical army. Today play card have changed. The ennemy Nº 1 is cellular non-country related non classical organized army. There´s no army(ies) in the world capable of dealing with lets say 3 Nimitz class carriers.

 

But thoses are useless agaisnt terrorism orgs. There´s a lot of people that prefer to see the money invested in 1 of those planes invested in double crossing people or in creating allies across the globe. Its much more efficient and less costly.

You have to remember this prokecy is on the stake for more almost 20 years.

[tflash]

Althought what you say make sense, RAM and design are still more important than what you said. Those are only consequence of the using of RAM+ Design.

 

The guitar thing was a joke of course, but I would agree that RAM + design is the basis that made stealth a reality. I just wanted to stress other things are involved that make a stealth fighter to a real capability.

[TucksonSonny]

There´s no army(ies) in the world capable of dealing with lets say 3 Nimitz class carriers.

 

*Cough* U212 *Cough* U214 :D

[D-Scythe]

Stealth not only consists of passive means, but also of active ones; and not only of design, but also tactics.

 

No. "Active" stealth is something completely different - such a system would "actively" destroy/cancel out incoming radar waves. The stuff you listed is not active stealth.

 

- information superiority. The best way to stay undetected is to keep out of the range of enemy sensors. The F-16 can already do this with its great HSD...

 

Where do you get this (false) information with the F-16? You might as well say that a jet has LANTIRN pod capabilities simply because it can call up a FLIR page on its MFDs.

 

The HSD by itself has nothing to do with flying around threat circles - rather, it just takes information received through datalink/HTS and plots the threats on a display for the pilot to see. It's just a page on an MFD screen, a means to present information to the pilot.

 

And all fighters with datalink already has this capability. Furthermore, it doesn't plot threats that are not known - if a previously unknown SA-11 site suddenly comes online 10 miles off your wing, you're f***ed, HSD or not.

[tflash]

No. "Active" stealth is something completely different - such a system would "actively" destroy/cancel out incoming radar waves. The stuff you listed is not active stealth.

 

 

 

Where do you get this (false) information with the F-16? You might as well say that a jet has LANTIRN pod capabilities simply because it can call up a FLIR page on its MFDs.

 

The HSD by itself has nothing to do with flying around threat circles - rather, it just takes information received through datalink/HTS and plots the threats on a display for the pilot to see. It's just a page on an MFD screen, a means to present information to the pilot.

 

And all fighters with datalink already has this capability. Furthermore, it doesn't plot threats that are not known - if a previously unknown SA-11 site suddenly comes online 10 miles off your wing, you're f***ed, HSD or not.

 

Hello D-Scythe, I meant what you say: that it is information. The datalinked information is displayed on the F-16's HSD, so that it can avoid threats. I accept your qualification that it is about known threats. You would agree, I guess, that one of the incredible features of the APG-77 radar in the F-22 is that it can detect a lot more about supposed threats, and display this to the pilot.

 

On the word active, yes you could limit the word to active cancellation techniques, but on the F-117, I read several interviews where they called the avoidance of enemy radar threats the "active" part of stealth.

[The_GOZR]

Is the 117 steath in Lockon ?

[TucksonSonny]

Hello D-Scythe, I meant what you say: that it is information. The datalinked information is displayed on the F-16's HSD, so that it can avoid threats. I accept your qualification that it is about known threats. You would agree, I guess, that one of the incredible features of the APG-77 radar in the F-22 is that it can detect a lot more about supposed threats, and display this to the pilot.

 

On the word active, yes you could limit the word to active cancellation techniques, but on the F-117, I read several interviews where they called the avoidance of enemy radar threats the "active" part of stealth.

 

But even a Mig-29G (German/Poland) can detect an F-16 before the F-16 can detect the mig.

[Slaunyeh]

Hello D-Scythe, I meant what you say: that it is information. The datalinked information is displayed on the F-16's HSD, so that it can avoid threats. I accept your qualification that it is about known threats. You would agree, I guess, that one of the incredible features of the APG-77 radar in the F-22 is that it can detect a lot more about supposed threats, and display this to the pilot.

 

On the word active, yes you could limit the word to active cancellation techniques, but on the F-117, I read several interviews where they called the avoidance of enemy radar threats the "active" part of stealth.

 

 

Indeed it can be caled active mean. If you donґt cross ennemy radar effectiveness zone you wonґt be detected by it.

That why weakly protected EWR are number 1 priority, cause you create blindspots in the ennemy surveillance array that can be exploited latter.

 

I think the point is, to be able to penetrate ennemy airzone without being intercepted on time you must have RAM/Design. The above mentioned possibility are consequences of the later.

 

The kind of active sthealth you mentioned where used before but were way more restricted, using terrain masking is a method, once you have pinpointed ennemy radar posiotion.

[Rolim]

For whoever would be interessed in the F-22

 

http://www.aviationtoday.com/Assets/AVIlockheed2j.pdf

 

Special Report, Avionics Magazine (20 pages, including ads :cry:)

[tflash]

Is the 117 stealth in Lockon ?

 

Quickly try it with the FBP: I can detect, lock and engage an F-117 only from about 20 nm at medium alt with a Flanker;

 

An F-16A without ECM I can detect much more early, more than 40nm.

 

So it is stealthier than an F-16 in Lockon; I guess in reality it should be even more stealthier though.

[tflash]

http://www.aviationtoday.com/Assets/AVIlockheed2j.pdf

 

Special Report, Avionics Magazine (20 pages, including ads :cry:)

 

I quote:

 

"It allows a new set of tactics against surface-to-air mis-

siles (SAMs) and an adversary’s integrated air defense system (IADS),

which combines SAMs with advanced fighter aircraft. “To no surprise,

the best combination against this threat is a stealthy fighter that

flies very fast. We can get in and out of [the enemy’s] range of coverage

before he has a chance to engage us,”

"The F-22’s ability to conduct deep penetration missions against heavily

defended air or ground targets is greatly enhanced by its ability to

“supercruise”—to fly at supersonic speeds without the use of its afterburners."

 

"This capability delivers two advantages. It enhances the fighter’s

stealth characteristics by eliminating the infrared signature that is

emitted by an afterburner. And it greatly extends the F-22’s range by

allowing supersonic cruise flight without the need to use the fuelguzzling

afterburners."

[The_GOZR]

Now something that may think a bad thing but .. making the 117 flyble online, this aircraft do not react like the others ultra boosted ones ( Migs or Mirage, F4 etc.. ) the 117 is still SLOW no ultra power witch is what it is... witch make it very playable Online and fun. Need a mod for weapon or bombs.

Now does the stealth apply on this situation as well ? Good for Bombing mission and get out of the monotony of the same scenarios...

 

Thx Flash.

[Blacknemisis]

Im pretty sure that Russia has Radars that can pit up the B2, F111, and F22. But they are not going to tell you that. Its like a tug-a-war between the USA and Russia. They create weapons to out do one another. No other country is a treat to US interest than Russia and vice-versa. So each try to be on top of each techically.

[Pilotasso]

Im sure US has a global anti nuke laser shield and alien sawcers right now but they will not tell you that. ;)

[monotwix]

Im sure US has a global anti nuke laser shield and alien sawcers right now but they will not tell you that. ;)

 

Why not?

[D-Scythe]

But even a Mig-29G (German/Poland) can detect an F-16 before the F-16 can detect the mig.

 

No, it cannot. Pitting a Block 40/50 F-16C with its APG-68 and applied RAM coatings/tinted canopies against the larger MiG-29G with a first generation N019 radar would give the Viper first look in most scenarios.

 

Consider also that the N001/N019 radars were of older technology than their western contemporaries - in fact, they still used cassegrain antennas that were less capable than the mechanically slotted-array types used by the APG-63/65/69/etc.

[TucksonSonny]

No, it cannot. Pitting a Block 40/50 F-16C with its APG-68 and applied RAM coatings/tinted canopies against the larger MiG-29G with a first generation N019 radar would give the Viper first look in most scenarios.

 

Consider also that the N001/N019 radars were of older technology than their western contemporaries - in fact, they still used cassegrain antennas that were less capable than the mechanically slotted-array types used by the APG-63/65/69/etc.

 

It was said by the Polish guys who have both these planes in their inventory.

It was also explained before on this forum that Russian radar works different and can pickup spikes from further ranges (a lock-on is another story)