How not to snap wings?

[Airhunter]

To be honest, in the history of the Tomcat not once did someone snap its wings off. You would probably black out way before you snap your wings off. So this seems kind of broken as a simple flight path change in a dogfight or a slight roll can cause a wingsnap. It should only be a thing under VERY high stress and excessive over-g. Not like there is a g-meter in the cockpit indicating and remembering the max g's you pulled.

[ebabil]

Ebabil, what stick do you have, and how much curve do you use in the axis tuning? You need to pay attention to the G-meter which is the small gauge in the top right corner of the instrument panel. Do not pull to beyond 8-9G and try and be smooth with your inputs. Practice pulling at various different speeds/angles to understand how much stick movement you need. Unlike the F-18 where you can pull the stick all the way back and let the FCS limit your G you have to fly the F-14 carefully. Just glance at the G-meter occasionally to see where you're at.

 

I am using CH fighterstick with lots of curve for this plane. otherwise i cannot make air refuel.

 

To be honest, in the history of the Tomcat not once did someone snap its wings off. You would probably black out way before you snap your wings off. So this seems kind of broken as a simple flight path change in a dogfight or a slight roll can cause a wingsnap. It should only be a thing under VERY high stress and excessive over-g. Not like there is a g-meter in the cockpit indicating and remembering the max g's you pulled.

 

yeah it sounds odd to me too. if you ignore the g meter for a second, then you need to pull over to get your wing from the ground.. There should be a certain trick. ın that way there must be at least a few real pilots who came back to base with a single wing

[Deano87]

To be honest, in the history of the Tomcat not once did someone snap its wings off. You would probably black out way before you snap your wings off. So this seems kind of broken as a simple flight path change in a dogfight or a slight roll can cause a wingsnap. It should only be a thing under VERY high stress and excessive over-g. Not like there is a g-meter in the cockpit indicating and remembering the max g's you pulled.

 

I've pulled 9G in the sim F-14 with no problems, exactly how much more G do you want it to be able to pull? I guarantee that whats snapping the wings are large G spikes well above 10G which you just don't see in real life because of pilot self preservation and the fact they have a control system which weights up to provide a reasonable stick force per-G, which we don't have.

[schurem]

Ok please allow me to lecture a bit:

 

Some of you seem to be operating under the misunderstanding that pulling the stick back equals G. This is not so, the real thing is more complicated.

 

Pulling back the stick deflects the tail. This makes the nose go up, increasing the angle between where the nose is pointing and where the wind is coming from. This is called the angle of attack.

IMG of AoA:

 

No that's wrong, let me try that again:

 

 

There, that's better. Notice how increasing the AoA increases lift. So you pull back on the stick to make the wings do more of their wing stuff.

 

A lot more lift than weight makes the plane accelerate upwards, just as more thrust than drag will make it accelerate forwards. Upwards acceleration is measured in... G. One G is regular level flight. It's the gravity of earth. One G. God's G. Use it in vertical manouvers (but that's a whole other story)

 

Now G is a function of speed and lift(AoA). The larger the speed, less AoA is needed to get enough acceleration to black the pilot out or even tear the wings off. (of course the sort of acceleration that tears the wings off a tomcat will also rearrange your inner organs in a rather lethal way and snap your neck) At slower speed, you can go to max AoA without blacking out.

 

The tomcat is a very talkative aircraft. It will tell you about its AoA by shuddering and rattling. At near-critical AoA it will shake and rattle like it has alzheimers'. We need that because our sim aircraft does not let us use a very important sense organ that pilots rely on a lot; their inner ear and their butt. Both measure accelerations. They will tell you if you are sideslipping, shaking, accelerating forward, upwards or downwards. We sim pilots compensate with instruments and sound.

 

Critical AoA?

 

Look at that wing. It is at such a large AoA that the air can no longer "stick" to its upper surface and it loses all lift. It drops. This we call a stall. In combat, aircraft rarely lose lift in both wings at the same time, so they often drop a wing at critical AoA. Notice also how that air over the wing that no longer gives lift is very turbulent. Those are the rattles and shakes I talked about earlier.

One of the things we instinctively do when a wing drops in the tomcat is to correct with the stick. This is a bad idea, read Victories' stickies about the how exactly. Use rudder.

 

Recap: Pulling stick makes AoA increase > lift increase > accelerate aircraft (G). These are all different things and different things factor into their relationship. it is not simple.

Edited March 28, 2019 by schurem

[lunaticfringe]

Not like there is a g-meter in the cockpit indicating and remembering the max g's you pulled.

 

*waves*

 

I'm up in ur cockpit, indicatin' ur Gs...

 

[Deano87]

Ok please allow me to lecture a bit: -edit-

 

Recap: Pulling stick makes AoA increase > lift increase > accelerate aircraft (G). These are all different things and different things factor into their relationship. it is not simple.

 

I think most people here understand the relationship between Pitch input, AoA and resultant G loading tbh. Snapping the wings off is a G-related issue, we don't really need to go into the nuts and bolts of how an aircraft produces acceleration. IMHO anyway.

[mortalkombat]

Oooof. AoA has almost nothing todo with wingsnapping except for the obvious increase in Lift. The dimension that correllates is the accelleration (G).

[Airhunter]

Yeah cool story man, I study aero. engineering and am fully aware of all the paremeters involved in load factors, lift generation, AOA etc.

 

What I am saying is that even a 5-6G pull or a quicker roll once snapped my wing off. A roll does indeed barely induce any g force on the pilot as he's in the center of the leverage but still, a somewhat quicker roll that is possible in just about any fighter jet and trainer should not just snap the wings off. If that was the case no one would fly said aircraft into combat.

 

I am also not talking about pulling 9+ G's, way past the design limitations. All I am saying is that even at moderate G's (around 5-6ish) the wings can simply snap off. I have rolled light GA aircraft faster in real life than that....

[Airhunter]

Oooof. AoA has almost nothing todo with wingsnapping except for the obvious increase in Lift. The dimension that correllates is the accelleration (G).

 

Exactly, it's the sudden change rate of the flight path vector, either induced by active flight controls or by wind. Simple physics and inertia / impulse changes.

[Deano87]

Yeah cool story man, I study aero. engineering and am fully aware of all the paremeters involved in load factors, lift generation, AOA etc.

 

What I am saying is that even a 5-6G pull or a quicker roll once snapped my wing off. A roll does indeed barely induce any g force on the pilot as he's in the center of the leverage but still, a somewhat quicker roll that is possible in just about any fighter jet and trainer should not just snap the wings off. If that was the case no one would fly said aircraft into combat.

 

I am also not talking about pulling 9+ G's, way past the design limitations. All I am saying is that even at moderate G's (around 5-6ish) the wings can simply snap off. I have rolled light GA aircraft faster in real life than that....

 

That sounds like a bug, I have't had any issues like that. Post a track or a video of it with live G displayed at the bottom. If you're not somehow creating a large G-spike then something definitely sounds wonky.

[FSKRipper]

What I am saying is that even a 5-6G pull or a quicker roll once snapped my wings off.

 

I suggest posting it in the bug section with an according track/video, otherwise it is nothing but a nice fairy tale.

[Airhunter]

I usually don't record when I play DCS but I will try to do some test runs. I've seen it happen to plenty of other people while streaming though.

[FSKRipper]

I usually don't record when I play DCS but I will try to do some test runs. I've seen it happen to plenty of other people while streaming though.

 

Don't know if it is the best option but tracks are recorded automatically. You just need to save it after your flight.

[Airhunter]

Will check that. Where do I find them (folder)?

 

Also, here's somewhat of an example. Maybe not the best one but you get the idea what happens. https://www.twitch.tv/blackbox711/clip/PowerfulEsteemedBarracudaAMPEnergy?filter=clips&range=30d&sort=time

[VC]

I'm also pretty sure I'm not ham-fistedly snappig the stick back. I usually get wing snap when I'm gently tightening a pull-out from a dive. Yes I'm going fast, but I'm putting the G on gradually and not blacking out, then suddenly lose a wing without warning. I'll try to do some actual testing and look at the G-meter when it happens.

[Airhunter]

Yes exactly that.

[FSKRipper]

Will check that. Where do I find them (folder)?

 

Also, here's somewhat of an example. Maybe not the best one but you get the idea what happens. https://www.twitch.tv/blackbox711/clip/PowerfulEsteemedBarracudaAMPEnergy?filter=clips&range=30d&sort=time

 

Depends, in the debriefing screen (SP) you have the option "save track"

Multiplayer will be recorded automatically if I remember correct.

 

Normally you will find it at C:\Users\Yourname\saved games\DCS\tracks

 

The best would be a short SP track showing the wing snap at 5G. Since tracks could be bugged and time is money it is not always suitable to go through a 2 hour MP file

[Deano87]

Will check that. Where do I find them (folder)?

 

Also, here's somewhat of an example. Maybe not the best one but you get the idea what happens. https://www.twitch.tv/blackbox711/clip/PowerfulEsteemedBarracudaAMPEnergy?filter=clips&range=30d&sort=time

 

He broke his wing from high instantaneous G, Look at the nose rate when he breaks the wing compared to when he is riding the blackout earlier on in that clip. Also look at his speed, hes accelerating through .95 mach at the start of the clip and as he rolls inverted just before he snaps his wing his ASI is reading Mach 1.0 exactly...

[schurem]

I think most people here understand the relationship between Pitch input, AoA and resultant G loading tbh. Snapping the wings off is a G-related issue, we don't really need to go into the nuts and bolts of how an aircraft produces acceleration. IMHO anyway.

 

Well if you read some of the posts on page one of this thread...

 

Anyway, I think we all can agree that the answer to this thread titles' question, "How not to snap wings?" is to be gentle with it and listen to the plane.

[Dangerman]

Wings snapping off is a bit excessive IMHO. sure enough, excessive G will damage the jet, spring links, wrinkle the skin and essentially bend it..... but the kind of loading that would break a wing off would feel like a barrier to the soft and squidgy pilot. Massive instantaneous G is so uncomfortable and either puts you to sleep or makes you release the stick really quickly because it is always a snatch.

 

Windy is right, no environmental feedback or g forces gives us an artificial G tolerance ability. Perhaps the solution is for DCS to model other damage to give us a bent aeroplane after too much G whilst easing the G on our behalf...... because that’s what we would be doing if it was real instantaneous G

 

You don’t get away with it either for real.....because the turnaround crew will record the G counts and enter them into the F700...... questions will be asked at shareholders!

[Airhunter]

Just checked the tacview and the wings snapped in a sustained turn that started at around 6G's and tightened up to 9.0 G's. At 9.0-9.1 G's the wing snapped. Surely this isn't right.

 

EDIT: Just checked again and it was actually a 7G pull with a slight roll (see attached picture). During the initiation of that roll that magenta cube separates from the aircraft, indicating structural failure.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Airhunter

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

Can you put a bookmark on that moment and then upload the actual tacview file?

[lunaticfringe]

Wouldn't matter. Tacview interpolates G load between timestamps.

 

Perform the sequence again while recording with a screen capture like Shadowplay. Use CTRL-Y in the cockpit to display the info bar.

[Sergeant_Hamlet]

What i want to see is the turn leading up to the break.

[jcdata]

I find this thread so much hilarious. it really shows a lot of you guys just really pull and are so used to the hud information. It seems that some of you can't adapt to a plane to find out where the G meter. located. just flying to understand the plane instead of just trying to go into combat with it.

 

Use some common sense

 

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