AIM-54C is the same as AIM-120？

[SgtPappy]

I thought that if launched in STT, the Phoenix will still go pitbull like in TWS its just that using STT gives it a bit longer range. This isn't the case then?

 

I can't seem to find the thread I last read but this is not the case. According to what I've read, the devs have stated - and maybe they can chime in on this themselves - that the current limitations in the DCS engine do not support true AIM-54 limitations.

 

Apparently, if not commanded by the AWG-9, it will NOT go pitbull. Sorry everyone, wish I could find the thread but I am having trouble sifting through the search results.

[MRaza]

I can't seem to find the thread I last read but this is not the case. According to what I've read, the devs have stated - and maybe they can chime in on this themselves - that the current limitations in the DCS engine do not support true AIM-54 limitations.

 

Apparently, if not commanded by the AWG-9, it will NOT go pitbull. Sorry everyone, wish I could find the thread but I am having trouble sifting through the search results.

 

That is correct but the question I was asking in the part you quoted me in was:

 

does the Phoenix go pitbull at all if launched in STT or does it act completely like a fox 1 missile? I would assume its the former

[Banzaiib]

the missiles are all a mess. You can fire an AIM-7 with your radar off in the hornet. I know this is a discussion about the 54, but it's very clear that ED needs to do some major work on guidance. I've heard many people say that the 54 will track off the rail even if you immediately go cold and break lock... this means the 54 goes active off the rail and its seeker head is directing it far outside of its actual operational range.

[Dudikoff]

I thought, the data link is only being used in STT mode, as the missile never goes active in that mode?

 

But, in STT mode, the Phoenix uses its SARH seeker which I'd expect has a much longer range than its active radar (given the AWG-9 power).

 

On the other hand, I could see the datalink being a must in TWS mode to get the missile close enough to the target you want to hit and then signal the missile to go active.

[MRaza]

I need clarification on the real life behavior of the Phoenix in STT, if someone is able to clarify. Is the Phoenix only guided semi actively until impact or does it go active just like in tws

[The AMRAAMer]

AIM-120 behavior:

Receives target location, speed, heading, etc at launch. Receives mid course guidance updates through data link if the supporting aircraft chooses to provide it. Will turn active on its own once within range of the target. Regardless of whether launched in TWS or STT, the procedure is the same but with STT the mid course guidance updates are more accurate.

 

AIM-54 behavior:

If launched in TWS, the missile receives target location, speed, heading, etc at launch. The missile MUST receive mid course guidance updates through data link up until pitbull. It will not turn active on its own, it must be commanded active by the AWG-9. Losing radar contact with the target means a wasted missile.

 

The only difference in using STT is that the missile uses its SARH seeker to guide itself to pitbull range, instead of receiving updates through data link

[The AMRAAMer]

The only current issue with the missile as of right know AFAIK is that the Phoenix will go still active instead of going ballistic even if you lose radar contact with the target before pitbull

[EcceHomo]

AIM-120 behavior:

Receives target location, speed, heading, etc at launch. Receives mid course guidance updates through data link if the supporting aircraft chooses to provide it. Will turn active on its own once within range of the target. Regardless of whether launched in TWS or STT, the procedure is the same but with STT the mid course guidance updates are more accurate.

 

AIM-54 behavior:

If launched in TWS, the missile receives target location, speed, heading, etc at launch. The missile MUST receive mid course guidance updates through data link up until pitbull. It will not turn active on its own, it must be commanded active by the AWG-9. Losing radar contact with the target means a wasted missile.

 

The only difference in using STT is that the missile uses its SARH seeker to guide itself to pitbull range, instead of receiving updates through data link

 

I said the difference between AIM-54C and AIM-120. AIM-54A is a semi-active data sampling. The main message from data link is antenna direction, while the target position and control command are obtained from missile calculation. AIM-120 uses inertial memory to remember the target position, speed, course and so on before launching, and then uses data link to update it. Guidance commands come from the aircraft. These are two different kinds of mid-course guidance. Does AIM-54C use the same command inertial guidance as AIM-120? This is a problem.

[SFJackBauer]

I said the difference between AIM-54C and AIM-120. AIM-54A is a semi-active data sampling. The main message from data link is antenna direction, while the target position and control command are obtained from missile calculation. AIM-120 uses inertial memory to remember the target position, speed, course and so on before launching, and then uses data link to update it. Guidance commands come from the aircraft. These are two different kinds of mid-course guidance. Does AIM-54C use the same command inertial guidance as AIM-120? This is a problem.

 

What difference does it make to DCS if the 54A and 54C are different as you said?

 

I'd think that the other point argued in this thread, regarding seeker activation upon losing lock, is more relevant to DCS.

[Raubritter]

.... Does AIM-54C use the same command inertial guidance as AIM-120? This is a problem.

 

"For terminal homing, the missile is fully autonomous, the inertial part of this technique. The AIM-54C provides a four-fold increase in missile capability over the AIM-54A. The AIM-54 сommandinertial technology has been proven in tests against BQM-34 and BOMARC target drones. The tests were termed successful, and the command-inertial technology has also been incorporated into Hughes' AIM-120 AMRAAM program. (See separate report.)

AIM-54 archived report.pdf

Edited April 14, 2019 by Hummel

[MBot]

There certainly is something off with AIM-54 guidance. I just tried some supersonic Backfire intercepts at 30'000+ ft, closure 1800 kts, launched in the heart of the envelope at 70-80 NM, both in TWS and PDSTT. Each time the missile lofts too high and about 10 NM from targets snaps down hard, burning all its energy and subsequently falling down vertically behind the target. Pk for long range shot against non-maneuvering supersonic target: 0.

[FWind]

command inertial of AIM-54C

Edited September 28, 2019 by FWind