Dogfighting Outnumbered in the Tomcat Ep1 [Video]

[104th_Maverick]

Started a new BFM series on my channel fighting outnumbered against the AI set on the highest skill level guns only, first up is the Tomcat vs 2 SU27 Flankers and then taking on 2 F-16 Block 52s

 

[MysteriousHonza]

Dont waste your time with AI, even highest sklill level AI is absurdly stupid and AI Su-27 can be beaten by human F-15C which is joke when F15C is flying brick compared to Su-27. Not even mentioning M2000, AI version can be killed by F15's too but when i was flaying M2K against human F/A-18's and Su-27's, they were doomed, TWR and turning capabilities of M2000 are incredible but AI is too stupid and cant do anything, it will bleed energy in its first turn and cant follow in vertical... Energy managment?? This thing does not exist for AI. It looks good but it wont teach anything to anyone.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

While I think the idea has a fair bit of merit, I think the execution could use work.

 

In principle we can all agree the AI is not quite a match for practicing with human opponents, but it does provide a very useful stepping tool to let you practice your own handling of the aircraft whenever you get 5 minutes for a flight. The AI is good enough at handling their plane to present some challenge to a newcomer.

 

To make this useful as a BFM series I would suggest placing some constraints on yourself, for example getting dead 6 on the opponent rather than taking these high deflection leading shots. That would allow for a more protracted dogfight, I would also recommend starting the fight with a more side by side aspect allowing both sides to turn into their opponent or go vertical rather than the head to head that the AI will happily oblige.

 

To me that suffers from A) Being more specifically a deflection shooting exercise rather than pulling the stick in BFM and B) takes advantage of the AI in DCS allowing for these occasional snapshots in head to heads to get them wounded and then finishing them off at your leisure.

 

For a little objection handling, I am aware that in a full on PVP fight taking these kind of snapshots can be the difference between winning and losing, and that expending minimum time and energy per kill is also desirable, but this is presented as a BFM training exercise and under that light I think we need to establish parameters which will allow practicing the skill we want to develop.

[104th_Maverick]

Great points Snake!

 

I just want to clarify that the series is more about demonstrating how easy it is to defeat the ai rather than teaching people how to dogfight.

 

I see a lot of people trying to “teach” people on YouTube by fighting the ai and feel they are sort of cheating the viewer a little.

 

Im in total agreement that if you want to improve you train against people, shooting the ai is basically showboating blasting fish in a barrel.

[Whiskey11]

;3880135']Great points Snake!

 

I just want to clarify that the series is more about demonstrating how easy it is to defeat the ai rather than teaching people how to dogfight.

 

I see a lot of people trying to “teach” people on YouTube by fighting the ai and feel they are sort of cheating the viewer a little.

 

Im in total agreement that if you want to improve you train against people, shooting the ai is basically showboating blasting fish in a barrel.

 

As one of those people trying to "teach" others using AI, I feel compelled to respond.

 

The intention isn't to cheat anyone, but merely show how the cat reacts to certain opponents and their maneuvering. Yes, the AI is nearly braindead but it can still be a useful tool to demonstrate the good and bad behaviors the cat exhibits as well as some generalized tactics to survive certain situations. I feel I did I good job of pointing out the limitations in the AI and situations in which the AI would have killed me had it been a real pilot.

 

The thing is, the AI is pretty consistent in its performance which makes practicing certain tactics easier than trying to dogfight a real human who is less consistent as a matter of tactics. This means less time spent trying to develop a video to demonstrate various tactics that DO work in certain situations. That consistency is also significantly easier to learn from as you have no idea the quality of the person you are dogfighting unless you know them personally. The only player I know of any consistently good BFM quality is on rarely and that makes it even harder.

 

Different strokes and all that. :thumbup:

[chaser]

Seems that Ed has a lot of work to do not only on fixing the tracks

nice Video Mav

[Eldur]

If just the visibility...

 

It sucks having to improve with labels that literally shine through the canopy frames, ED really has to get their things up here, ideally for their MAC release which is a package aimed for accessing more "casual" users in order to eventually getting them into the study sim thingy. The labels have to be behind the cockpit not to make it possible to magically see through it when trying to compensate for let's say having bad eyes. Having my retinae totally wrecked and lenses replaced by artificial ones, I'm celebrating every kill and survived fight like Christmas, but I'd probably be totally lost online where labels are off usually for a good reason. Using dot labels to make those specks more visible, but that doesn't help spotting something hiding in the blind spot. But I'd not give up flying just because of that, and it's much more rewarding than it is already for the healthy ones...

 

Just got reminded of this again since I literally couldn't see them most of the time while watching which makes it hard to understand your maneouvering decisions, but well, it's always harder to watch somone else tracking opponents than doing it yourself.

 

But nevertheless I spotted this:

[104th_Maverick]

As one of those people trying to "teach" others using AI, I feel compelled to respond.

 

The intention isn't to cheat anyone, but merely show how the cat reacts to certain opponents and their maneuvering.

 

I replied on the video too.

 

I regret saying “cheat” I could have chosen my words better, I watched your video today and was very impressed with your explanations and how you qualify the ai shortcomings.

I’m not trying to trash anyone with ai BFM vids, again it’s something I could have worded better, I just see a lot of videos that frustrate me, as someone who has had to work very hard for years on my BFM skills watching others blast the ai then try to teach people how they did it triggers me.

 

I know it shouldn’t and you’re 100% right, different strokes for different folks, I’m just a bit of an a-hole who doesn’t appreciate that not everyone has years of BFM training under their belt and might not find it as easy as I do.

[captain_dalan]

Eh.....the AI is prone to exploits, that is true. But it also (as mentioned) makes for a good sparring buddy, if you like the explore the envelope of your plane or your handling of it. Stick discipline especially. The AI never stalls and never runs out of energy (just check out the difference between a human and an AI controlled F-5), so as long as you don't abuse its weaknesses, it can teach you how to pull the max out of your AC. Just don't expect it to do anything creative. For that you need human buddies.

 

If just the visibility...

 

 

Why is visibility so bad for you? Are you flying VR?

[VampireNZ]

;3881378']I replied on the video too.

 

I regret saying “cheat” I could have chosen my words better, I watched your video today and was very impressed with your explanations and how you qualify the ai shortcomings.

I’m not trying to trash anyone with ai BFM vids, again it’s something I could have worded better, I just see a lot of videos that frustrate me, as someone who has had to work very hard for years on my BFM skills watching others blast the ai then try to teach people how they did it triggers me.

 

I know it shouldn’t and you’re 100% right, different strokes for different folks, I’m just a bit of an a-hole who doesn’t appreciate that not everyone has years of BFM training under their belt and might not find it as easy as I do.

 

 

I also think the AI should be fully utilised to get to know your own aircraft and being right there whenever you need them is a big bonus.

 

 

I don't prescribe to the 'attitude' of some ppl who think you either PvP 'real people', or you are a lesser sim flyer. I encountered it years ago joining an online squadron in Falcon 4.0. I never PvP'd because I couldn't stand the ego issues of some 'pilots' - so just worked on my craft against various AI situations. Eventually after continual 'abuse' I was set up to fight the best dogfighter in the squadron, and proceeded to beat him, repeatedly.

 

 

It's a shame that somehow you let other peoples choices affect you so badly, to the point of specifically popsting videos to show how useless thay must be because the AI are like shooting 'fish in a barrel' etc. I guess if they were so fish-like you wouldn't need to spray and pray on low rate A-G gun setting during a fleeting nose-on opportunity - I guess that triggers me lol ;)

Time spent perfecting your positioning against AI OR Humans would be time well spent on gunnery efficiency.

 

 

I would personally recommend using the AI at every opportunity to sim pilots to perfect their aircraft handling, and if you can help others in the meantime then by all means. You don't need to solely fight 'real people' to prove anything to anyone.

A while ago a chap on here was saying he struggled against the AI etc in the F-14, so I suggested starting against the SU-27, including a quick Tacview vid showing a quick fight (90 seconds also..with a rear quarter, intentional measured burst kill).

 

So I apologise for not using 'real' PvP fighting, and will refrain in future - and go away and reassess my place in the pixel-pilot Top Gun fantasy world.

[metzger]

AI differ from frame to frame. Mav, is it so easy for you to beat AI on excellent mig-15 with a saber ? Or in F-5 vs F-5 ?

 

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

[104th_Maverick]

 

 

I don't prescribe to the 'attitude' of some ppl who think you either PvP 'real people', or you are a lesser sim flyer.

 

I do 100%... this is DCS not BMS tho is it?

 

And I don’t ‘need’ any type of spray and pray head on to win, if you actually paid any attention you would have noticed that I killed both F16s from the back and not using head on shots, so your argument falls on its face.

 

If you seriously think fighting ai in DCS will make you as good as fighting against people will you’re seriously wrong.

 

DCS ai are dumb beyond belief and regardless how good their energy management is they don’t hold a candle to fighting against a real person with any sort of training.

 

They are good for learning aircraft handling and the core basics of BFM, implying that they will elevate your skill set above the level training against people will is misleading and plain wrong.

Edited April 14, 2019 by [Maverick]

[freehand]

You say the AI is dumb beyond belief but still felt the need to give yourself a pat on the back at the end of the video with a shout :D

[104th_Maverick]

You say the AI is dumb beyond belief but still felt the need to give yourself a pat on the back at the end of the video with a shout :D

 

Im easily impressed tho.

 

Next vid is up...

 

 

Tomcat Dogfighting 2 vs 1, Mig-28s and Mig-29s

 

[Banzaiib]

Had a tougher time with the F-5 than the 29's... interesting. I have the same experience, actually, especially after the last patch. Engines feel anemic. You also carry more speed into the merge than you typically would in a 1v1...

[AH_Solid_Snake]

The second video is much improved for my money, another comment to make them even better would be to provide more of a voice over regarding your thought process? Possibly a pre-flight brief of what sort of tactics might work better or worse.

 

With the F-5s we can assume up front that you won't be able to turn with them horizontally but you should have a huge power advantage on them allowing you to get into the vertical, so possibly a quick analysis of relative strengths / weaknesses of the jets followed by commentary over the fight of times when you reject a horizontal fight and go vertical, or choose to spend some knots to get a positional advantage, just something to give insight to the thought process.

 

For simple same-plane or with advantage BFM you can generally limit training to put your lift vector on the bogey and pull, in these more intermediate / advanced sessions there's a lot more thought required to get ahead of the bogey, predict where they will be and position your nose for advantage in another 10-20 seconds time, particularly when you decide to pull vertical, roll and then choose what direction to complete a loop into - its all based on knowing where the opponent is likely to be not where they are now.

[VampireNZ]

Great vid Mav - nice aircraft positioning and considered shots. Fair play in the disclaimer at the end also, I understand the message you are trying to get across in general.

 

My initial comment regarding BMS was not specifically related to the sim, just the fact that there were some people with similar ideas while I was flying that sim that were very embarassed after some "AI fighting novice" destroyed their best PvP'er. Totally situation dependant, and not saying 'it is the way to do it', and I also put a lot of work and RL study into BFM. So you are right - just fighting AI alone will NOT put you in a position to beat an online squadrons best dogfighter :thumbup:.