How to turn in the vertical/oblique?

[mortalkombat]

When fighting enemies bfm in the vertical I try to maximize my turn rate by staying near corner.

 

Taken the F-18 with 350kts corner speed I try to catch speed when at the bottom of the loop to get to 400kts. I then pull hard and get the nose to 90° up still at 400kts. From that point (nose up) I am kind of unsure what is the best thing to do. I could:

1. pull hard wich would get my nose fast back down but I would have to unload afterwards to catch speed in order to be able to perform a second loop.

2. pull hard at first to get to corner speed but then ease the stick at 330 so I dont have to unload in order to catch speed

3. pull easy on the stick so I turn consistent at 4g but dont get below 330

4. ease the stick consistently throughout the turn to keep constant aoa but decreasing G.

 

I can't make out which is the best turning method. Yet there has to be a most efficient one.

So the question is when flying a loop when and how to pull the stick and which is the parameter to fly after (aoa, speed).

[VZ_342]

All of those will work, but they will provide different outcomes. Practice all of them and note angles, speed, which ones are best for pursuing and which ones are good for evading...then in a dogfight when you find yourself climbing and pursuing (or being pursued) you’ll know the right maneuver to get the advantage.

[DeltaMike]

I've been practicing BFM a lot in the F15 and F18, and just starting with F14. Note practicing doesn't = winning so this is gonna be a comment on flight characteristics. Somebody else will have to teach the art of the kill.

 

I'm currently looking at corner speed as a range. Above a certain speed it won't turn, below a certain speed it won't fly. With these three jets, the upper bound is fuzzy, you have a little wiggle room. The lower bound is pretty firm for the F15. Maybe when I'm better at the F14 the lower bound will be a little fuzzier -- I fly with one guy who does amazing stuff with the leading edge slats -- but for me, so far, it's absolutely critical to stay above ~390kts.

 

So, to me, both the F15 and the F14 seem to require a light hand on the stick. The F18 on the other hand, I can yank the crap out of that thing and still somehow keep flying. I find myself pulling quite hard through parts of the turn to get my nose where I want it, then easing up to regulate speed. It's like drifting, kind of. I don't know that's the right thing to do, I'm just saying you can do that.

 

Arguably pretty much all of the modern DCS jets have low wing loading. IMO that counts the F15 and F14 if you count the lifting body. Just understand you need a lot of speed to generate lift with the body. I think that's why those planes more or less fall out of the sky suddenly below a certain speed (maybe less for the F14 because of the variable wing geometry and leading edge slats). And why yanking too hard on the stick is an opportunity for a mistake. It can be done; the guys I fly against do an amazing job with that. Me, I find myself being very gentle on the stick in the F15 and F14, and rather suspect it's a requirement for the latter (I've noticed the wings kinda fall off otherwise).

 

So. We've talked about stick pressure to maintain optimum turn rate. I've found you can also gain or lose altitude to accomplish the same thing. So for example if I'm a little fast in a turn I can pull the nose above the horizon and bleed off a little speed. I like the high yo-yo, you can bleed off speed and yet maintain a bit of energy. With that in mind, I try not to pull a lot of alpha.

 

High yo-yo strikes me as subtly different from going vertical. With one, I'm trying to gain separation. With the other, I'm trying to reduce it.

 

Either way, I'm not sure I see the point in pulling alpha right as you're starting to climb. I don't think you want to waste a bunch of energy with induced drag.

 

Which I think might be an important thing. Yanking back on the stick induces drag. Question then is, can I get away with it. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't, it seems. With the F18 I can get away with it, up to a point. After that point, I'm figuring out how to gain horizontal separation while I'm waiting for that thing to accelerate.

Edited May 20, 2019 by DeltaMike

[Svsmokey]

And waiting a lo-ong time at that :)

[Mars Exulte]

I've been practicing BFM a lot in the F15 and F18, and just starting with F14. Note practicing doesn't = winning so this is gonna be a comment on flight characteristics. Somebody else will have to teach the art of the kill.

 

I'm currently looking at corner speed as a range. Above a certain speed it won't turn, below a certain speed it won't fly. With these three jets, the upper bound is fuzzy, you have a little wiggle room. The lower bound is pretty firm for the F15. Maybe when I'm better at the F14 the lower bound will be a little fuzzier -- I fly with one guy who does amazing stuff with the leading edge slats -- but for me, so far, it's absolutely critical to stay above ~390kts.

 

So, to me, both the F15 and the F14 seem to require a light hand on the stick. The F18 on the other hand, I can yank the crap out of that thing and still somehow keep flying. I find myself pulling quite hard through parts of the turn to get my nose where I want it, then easing up to regulate speed. It's like drifting, kind of. I don't know that's the right thing to do, I'm just saying you can do that.

 

Arguably pretty much all of the modern DCS jets have low wing loading. IMO that counts the F15 and F14 if you count the lifting body. Just understand you need a lot of speed to generate lift with the body. I think that's why those planes more or less fall out of the sky suddenly below a certain speed (maybe less for the F14 because of the variable wing geometry and leading edge slats). And why yanking too hard on the stick is an opportunity for a mistake. It can be done; the guys I fly against do an amazing job with that. Me, I find myself being very gentle on the stick in the F15 and F14, and rather suspect it's a requirement for the latter (I've noticed the wings kinda fall off otherwise).

 

So. We've talked about stick pressure to maintain optimum turn rate. I've found you can also gain or lose altitude to accomplish the same thing. So for example if I'm a little fast in a turn I can pull the nose above the horizon and bleed off a little speed. I like the high yo-yo, you can bleed off speed and yet maintain a bit of energy. With that in mind, I try not to pull a lot of alpha.

 

High yo-yo strikes me as subtly different from going vertical. With one, I'm trying to gain separation. With the other, I'm trying to reduce it.

 

Either way, I'm not sure I see the point in pulling alpha right as you're starting to climb. I don't think you want to waste a bunch of energy with induced drag.

 

Which I think might be an important thing. Yanking back on the stick induces drag. Question then is, can I get away with it. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't, it seems. With the F18 I can get away with it, up to a point. After that point, I'm figuring out how to gain horizontal separation while I'm waiting for that thing to accelerate.

 

F-18 is FBW, so the computer helps keep you from doing anything too blatantly stupid and helps 'fly' it through some of the more 'offkey' things we try to do. The F-15 is partially augmented, but not full FBW meaning it is more susceptible to pilot mishandling. F-14 is absolutely pilot controlled, there's nothing there to prevent you from ripping the wings off or inducing a full scale structural failure if you're careless.