F18 acm and gun fight proper energy management

[nwagtmustang]

Hello everyone. I'm sure this has been discussed before. I'm wanting to be able to succeed in a gun fight with the f18. I use the mission editor to set it up. The problem is no matter what I do the ai plane always gets on my six and I cant shake him. I read another post where it said to be near corner speed at the merge which I believe is around 400 knots. It then said turn into the enemy plane and dump your energy

 

This is how I fight and please give me pointers. I make a turn into the enemy plane. I'm not really sure what the best speed is for a turn fight. My airplane is clean except for 2 side winders. What happens is I try to turn so much into the opposing plane that my speed bleeds down to around 100 knots and have to descend to gain speed. I remember in the Jane's titles there was a caret by the speed indication on the hud to give you, your best corner speed. I'm guessing the real f18 does not have that, otherwise it would be in the sim. Forget about going vertical. I bleed airspeed way too fast. If I pull less into the turn I keep my speed up but then opposing plane stays on my six and i cant shake them. So it's either pull hard and lose speed , then drive to gain speed or pull hard and lose speed and be in an easy target.

 

Now when i fly the bf109 I'm pretty good at a turn fight. I know the basics of a turn fight. Just have trouble in the f18. It seems to me atleast in the sim the f18 loses speed too quickly and takes a long time, even in level flight with full burners to get over 300 knots. With the f18 I fight against mig 29, su33, mig 15, and even another f18.

 

What I would like to do is fight against other players with guns only but having trouble finding people. So for now I just go against the AI. So if anyone could give me advice I would appreciate it.

 

On a side note I did one of the mission of taking off from an airfield. It was night. Had 3 fuel tanks. Went to full burner and could barley maintain 135 knots on take off. Why cant I get upto speed? Something is telling me something is wrong with the flight model but again I could be wrong. Any help much appreciated.

[Harker]

First, do you have the Afterburner detent enabled? Go to Options, Special, F-18 and check. ED has implemented an afterburner detent option, which means that you don't go into afterburner unless you hit the corresponding button (for left and right), even though you might push your real throttle to the max.

 

Second, are you 100% that your throttle axes are set correctly, from 0% to 100%?

 

Third, 400 knots is indeed the speed you should aim for in the Hornet. Unless you pull 7+ G all the time, you should be able to hold 350+ knots with full afterburner and a clean aircraft. Also, be careful not to overspeed, it's easy in the Hornet.

 

Check these and post back

[nwagtmustang]

I know my axis are correct. However I did not know about the detent. When I get home I will look into it and see if that helps. Thanks for the info. I will check back once i get into dcs at home. I do know I look at my throttle inside the cockpit it is fully forward so I assumed I was in burner.

Edited May 3, 2019 by nwagtmustang

[nwagtmustang]

F18 acm and gun fight proper energy management

 

Hello everyone. I'm sure this has been discussed before. I'm wanting to be able to succeed in a gun fight with the f18. I use the mission editor to set it up. The problem is no matter what I do the ai plane always gets on my six and I cant shake him. I read another post where it said to be near corner speed at the merge which I believe is around 400 knots. It then said turn into the enemy plane and dump your energy

 

This is how I fight and please give me pointers. I make a turn into the enemy plane. I'm not really sure what the best speed is for a turn fight. My airplane is clean except for 2 side winders. What happens is I try to turn so much into the opposing plane that my speed bleeds down to around 100 knots and have to descend to gain speed. I remember in the Jane's titles there was a caret by the speed indication on the hud to give you, your best corner speed. I'm guessing the real f18 does not have that, otherwise it would be in the sim. Forget about going vertical. I bleed airspeed way too fast. If I pull less into the turn I keep my speed up but then opposing plane stays on my six and i cant shake them. So it's either pull hard and lose speed , then drive to gain speed or pull hard and lose speed and be in an easy target.

 

Now when i fly the bf109 I'm pretty good at a turn fight. I know the basics of a turn fight. Just have trouble in the f18. It seems to me atleast in the sim the f18 loses speed too quickly and takes a long time, even in level flight with full burners to get over 300 knots. With the f18 I fight against mig 29, su33, mig 15, and even another f18.

 

What I would like to do is fight against other players with guns only but having trouble finding people. So for now I just go against the AI. So if anyone could give me advice I would appreciate it.

 

On a side note I did one of the mission of taking off from an airfield. It was night. Had 3 fuel tanks. Went to full burner and could barley maintain 135 knots on take off. Why cant I get upto speed? Something is telling me something is wrong with the flight model but again I could be wrong. Any help much appreciated.

[Harker]

It could very well be the detent. Both the takeoff and the rapid energy loss during ACM make sense like that.

[Preendog]

100-200kts is wayyy too slow unless you are actually 1 second away from a 100% shot.

 

I'd suggest you start way faster, and ease off and go nose-low if you get slow (slow meaning anywhere near or below corner speed). And of course you dump your stores and be in full burner the whole time.

 

If you ever do find yourself going too fast, it's easy to just go vertical or roll scissors, or something. The AI isn't smart enough to realize it can make you overshoot. And if you do, the F18 has enough high alpha stability to claw back behind the 3-9 line.

[Deano87]

You’re getting greedy and turning your Hornet into one big airbrake. You absolutely don’t want to dump your energy, energy is life, so no wonder you’re a sitting duck if you pull hard enough to get down to 100 knots. You want to practice and try to find your best corner speed. This is the lowest speed that you can still maintain your maximum G. It’s probably around 350knots, note this is not the smallest radius turn, simply best turn rate. If you need to turn inside your enemy (smallest turn radius not best turn rate) then it’s around 200knots and 20units AOA.

 

Also regarding the last point. Something tells me your brake pedal axis is/are reversed. It accelerates just fine with 3 tanks in full burner.

[probad]

praying you're not taking 3 bags into a knifefight

 

you should upload a track if you really want an accurate diagnosis

[Pikey]

Fix your MP friends list first, as you said, playing with humans is better because you at least have an enemy who can make a mistake but more importantly doesn't have insane energy retention in the vertical.

 

 

Briefly, from your commentary about the WW2 planes I believe you have identified the main advantage and disadvantage with the Hornet very quickly, in that you found you have massive nose authority for no stability loss, but in saying that, you find the main disadvantage is that you can "spend your nose" inappropriately.

 

The Mirage module became a much better teacher of that lesson after the FM was down tuned, it spends like a 1990's credit card. Whereas, your WW2 and traditional non FBW modules faithfully kick you in the goolies if you try to go into "angles debt" - see F-14 for more details.

 

Think of the stick as a credit card. The closer it is to your private parts, the more you act like an estate agent at a christmas party. Give up your knots according to the urgency of the situation. Of course knowing your turn rates, sustained turn rates and when to hit your corners helps but these are also no good if you misinterpret the bubbles and spend too much when you were not in the right point. Take a narrow head to head crossing angle and then tell yourself, I'm INSIDE his circle, I shouldn't be in an offensive break turn just because he crossed my canopy like a streak of lightning... I should be looking for his post and intentions and fitting my turn to match. A misaligned turn circle will feed your instincts with the wrong feeling until you understand that biding your time will get you angles in the medium turn. But poorer instincts will lead to rushing to the mistake ... consider that you spent it all, didnt get to shoot and the bandit is now faster and you are in a nose to tail flow with a bandit pressuring you and you have nothing to give because you blew it on hookers and champagne in the first three seconds.

 

Anyway moot, get a buddy ;)

[rajdary]

Fix your MP friends list first, as you said, playing with humans is better because you at least have an enemy who can make a mistake but more importantly doesn't have insane energy retention in the vertical.

 

 

Briefly, from your commentary about the WW2 planes I believe you have identified the main advantage and disadvantage with the Hornet very quickly, in that you found you have massive nose authority for no stability loss, but in saying that, you find the main disadvantage is that you can "spend your nose" inappropriately.

 

The Mirage module became a much better teacher of that lesson after the FM was down tuned, it spends like a 1990's credit card. Whereas, your WW2 and traditional non FBW modules faithfully kick you in the goolies if you try to go into "angles debt" - see F-14 for more details.

 

Think of the stick as a credit card. The closer it is to your private parts, the more you act like an estate agent at a christmas party. Give up your knots according to the urgency of the situation. Of course knowing your turn rates, sustained turn rates and when to hit your corners helps but these are also no good if you misinterpret the bubbles and spend too much when you were not in the right point. Take a narrow head to head crossing angle and then tell yourself, I'm INSIDE his circle, I shouldn't be in an offensive break turn just because he crossed my canopy like a streak of lightning... I should be looking for his post and intentions and fitting my turn to match. A misaligned turn circle will feed your instincts with the wrong feeling until you understand that biding your time will get you angles in the medium turn. But poorer instincts will lead to rushing to the mistake ... consider that you spent it all, didnt get to shoot and the bandit is now faster and you are in a nose to tail flow with a bandit pressuring you and you have nothing to give because you blew it on hookers and champagne in the first three seconds.

 

Anyway moot, get a buddy ;)

 

:megalol: Thanks for the tips, nice explanation!

[nwagtmustang]

It was the detents.. I can now pull a hard sustained turn and not bleed off air speed. I have not tried dog fighting. Just did a quick free flight. I'm goo, thank you for mentioning the detents.

[nwagtmustang]

No I'm not. I was just sping a single.mission takeoff trying to figure out the airspeed. The mission preload 3 tanks on the airframe.

[M1Combat]

Jettison the tanks. There are a few different ways. My best advice to learn the initial skills of a dogfight is to try to follow the enemy instead of shoot them. I don't mean keep them in your crosshairs. I mean fly through the same piece of space that they do, but behind them. This is basically "lag pursuit". Doing this will teach you a lot about what his movements will mean your movements need to be. Just make a mission where you start on his six. Don't shoot him. Just follow him. Don't try to catch him. Just follow. Maintain distance. Maybe shoot for .3Nm or something and just simply follow his line like you would in a race car. Once you understand that... Now learn how to catch him slowly.

 

 

Here's why you catch him slowly...

 

 

 

 

If you're a bit behind him and he pulls...

 

 

If you pull hard to maintain sight picture (keep them in your hud) then you can just fine until a certain point... but at some point, because you've pulled before you physically got to the location he pulled... You're doing something "like" what they call "lead pursuit". This isn't exactly lead pursuit by definition but it gets the point across. This causes you to be pointed in a very different direction then him when you DO get to his location. At this point he flies by your nose way too quickly to get a high percentage shot and you aren't "behind him". So... You pull hard and bleed speed.

 

 

So... Be patient.

 

 

When he pulls... Get "behind" the enemy. Not "on" the enemy.

 

 

So, same scenario...

 

 

He pulls, but this time you wait until you're about the same physical location he was when he pulled, then you pull. Maybe a little before where he was exactly. It depends on how far ahead he actually is and the capability of the two aircraft and any energy differences between you. Now what happens is you put yourself pretty much in the same circle they're flying instead of an offset circle of your own.

 

 

 

To catch them you don't need to point "at" them.

 

 

Fly the same line they do... but either faster or a little tighter. Not a lot tighter... because then we end up in scenario one where the angle is so high that it's a super low percentage shot.

 

 

 

 

Now... After you've learned how to creep up on them via not biting off too much of their circle... You can learn how much you CAN bite off and start making your fights quicker... OR... recognizing when they've bit off too much :).

[nwagtmustang]

Thank you for the info. However the problem was, I thought I was in full burner when I was not. It was the detents. I can know keep my speed up and adjust from there using throttle and acm.

 

With the bf109 I can win dog fights against spitfires and mustangs. Now that I know it was the detents I will go in and try again.

 

Again I do appreciate the help/suggestions you have given me.

[maxTRX]

Thank you for the info. However the problem was, I thought I was in full burner when I was not. It was the detents. I can know keep my speed up and adjust from there using throttle and acm.

 

With the bf109 I can win dog fights against spitfires and mustangs. Now that I know it was the detents I will go in and try again.

 

Again I do appreciate the help/suggestions you have given me.

 

Aha, like it's already been said you'll see a world of difference but be careful when you hit the A/B.

If you go head on with no weapons other then guns :lol: ok,ok it's a team gunzo match...

Your opponent will lock you up sooner or later and will monitor your speed. He doesn't even have to lock you up to figure out what you might be up to. Another thing is if you engage the A/B to early the speed at this weight and drag will get away from you quick.

Now AI, they do make mostly one mistake -they are predictable as hell.

[Harker]

It was the detents.. I can now pull a hard sustained turn and not bleed off air speed. I have not tried dog fighting. Just did a quick free flight. I'm goo, thank you for mentioning the detents.

 

Glad it was that simple. A lot of people don't know about it. If you have the option of having a physical detent on your throttle, you can use that and adjust your throttle curves to match it.

Happy dogfighting! :)