Valve Index Hands On

[Rosebud47]

... so true, *sigh* blaming on someone or something works very well in the internet, to give yourself a voice.

[etherbattx]

... so true, *sigh* blaming on someone or something works very well in the internet, to give yourself a voice.

 

 

you hit the nail on the head!

it’s why we subscribe.

 

otherwise no one would listen to us.

[RealDCSpilot]

Yep, VR is so much about "seeing is believing" :)

and misinformation. This thread is a good example, it started with a good video review from two guys who can be trusted with unbiased statements about tech in general and the 2nd post, right away, is the exact opposite.

[Rosebud47]

From the start of VR the reviews of the headset, there was always the same set of arguments to value a HMD, to have more to say about it. For me only the graphics a HMD provide is of interest and I never understood why ´comfort´ or ´audio´ beside the VR controller or the tracking system was given the same value in argumentation than the graphics. Surely there are differences from one to another HMD, but for exampe ´Comfort´ for me is on a complete other level of interest, than the the graphical features.

In all the youtube reviews, I always skip 3/4 of the ´blabla´ to hear some impressions of the graphics of the HMD.

Totally agree to Brixmis ( also etherbattx :))) ), but you can get a quite good impression of a reviewed headset, when you collect and observe different user impressions.

 

I´m not sure, if I will get an Index, still got it reserved, but coming for the 5k+ the advantages of the Index are not so much a step ahead and in case of FOV even a step back. Again 500,- for headset, which don´t give me more is really questionable.

 

Whereas when coming from a Rift or Vive or a WMR headset of 1st gen. the Index surely is a recommandable upgrade.

 

It would be also interesting to know, if you get ghosting/ double images in DCS or if/how the higher display frequencies could reduce shimmering effects with DCS in VR.

[RealDCSpilot]

The Pimax 5K+ is a plastic bar with a rubber strap for 700,- that will start to show cracks after a while. The LCD panels are even worse than Rift S with colors and backlight. If you consider graphics as most important, pimax is the wrong way. Even the FOV is more a Fake-Of-View, one third of each panel is wasting pixels with incorrect distortions, the only mode where those "fried egg" shaped lenses work correctly is small mode.

At the first backer meeting we (backers) recommended that Pimax should keep the backer price for end-consumers, but well - didn't happen...

I sold my backer pledge immediately after i came home, because Elite Dangerous looked horribly in all Pimax HMD's i tested.

 

 

check this:

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/uploads/default/original/2X/b/b9bedd59b0d6be6ded276105761a8308cb8f5553.jpg

 

 

vs

 

 

real wide FOV lenses from an old infinityeye prototype (StarVR uses same kind of lenses):

https://roadtovrlive-5ea0.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/infiniteye-inside-large.jpg

Edited July 7, 2019 by Alec Delorean

[Supmua]

Well for one thing, whatever headset or any tool you have make sure to know it and know it really well so you'll be able to realize its full potential or shortcomings.

 

Image clarity in VR is highly dependent on the position of the headset to get the right sweet spots, as well as ability to acheive stereoscopic view (and that means having the correct IPD setting). If your IPD is off don't think that you will even achieve the max clarity for that particular headset, can't beat physics, sure you can use software to shift the image around but the most proximal or lateral part will be off screen which means loss of overall resolution.

 

In this youtube example,

you really can't see SDE through the camera (I think the optics/camera sensor used aren't good enough to pick it up). But, in the real world through your eyes SDE will be visible (I own and tested this game), so this isn't quite the direct representative of what your eyes will see (unless you have impaired vision). And the same goes for any other headsets and that's why, like most things in life, the best person to judge things for yourself will be you.

 

Black level is also very subjective. It is true that the LCD panel is no match for OLED in this respect, but most of the older games are likely calibrated for OLED screen that's why space or dark sky can look terrible on these newer headsets because they're just not optimized for it. This can be changed by developers releasing a new update, or by providing gamma/black level adjustment as an option in the game. I'd bet even the Pimax screen would look much better when optimized.

[Rosebud47]

I shouldn´t have posted, now after your replies, there is a 90% tendency that I have to buy the Index, once it is available ... hahaha.

But I do appreciate the large FOV of the Pimax very much.

@Alec your complaints for the Pimax in comparison to Acer ( or XTAL ) are true, but the difference of the Acer or XTAL lenses to Pimax ´fried egg´ lenses comes along with a huge difference in price tag at this time. Beside the complaints in this comparison, I have to say, that the Pimax large FOV works pretty good with having in backmind, that it always could be better, which then, depends on the price tag. The quality of large FOV, I guess, could be even better then Acer or XTAL, but this as well depends then on a price target. Also just to mention is, that I don´t have cracks in the Pimax.

Well, the one I am looking for, would be like Index with large FOV of at least 150° at a reasonable price tag... maybe next year from another company, but the overall quality of image clearly will be better with the Index than with the Pimax.

 

Funny thing with theoretical thinking is, that each time I´m running the Pimax in DCS practically, I´m going to love the experience it gives me.

[RealDCSpilot]

:)

Large FOV in good quality will come some day, Valve just took the next reasonable step: with a tiny bump up. The biggest problem is todays hardware which isn't capable to tackle those big resolutions x2 in decent framerates. Sadly, with a Pimax come too many sacrifices.

However, if you ever get the chance to try out the Index, don't hesitate. Those LCD panels are the best i've ever seen in a VR HMD so far.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Alec Delorean

[Rosebud47]

I don´t think, that there is an opportunity to test the Index, but I´m already convinced, that it is a quality product. Will place an order, once it is available and sell my Odyssey+ backup headset to compensate the costs for the Index.

 

Mainly the Index is more preferable over the Pimax is because you don´t have to worry so much with adjusting and optimizing the image quality and performance. Pimax driver and software is a long time work in progress and the fiddling will become more, when they release there driver software as open source. Despite of that, the Index promises a more comfortable handling and less worries about the need to optimize the experience by yourself, which finally gives more time to fly in DCS.

 

About todays hardware capabilities to run at maximum settings in VR, I remember it wasn´t so long ago, since the hardware, respectively graphic cards become capable at all to run games at maximum settings at all. Before that point we had always to sacrifice in game settings to get a good performance with any card for regular 2D monitor games and particular high demanding games. So current situation with hardware and VR is nothing new... or let´s put it this way: regarding the lack of performant graphics cards and CPUs, VR brought us back in a time before the year 2000, in which the discrepancy between the performance need of particluar programs and available hardware was a common issue.

That this issue back in time was solved at a certain point and the graphics cars provided the power to run every game with maximum settings and high performance, makes me quite confident, that the same issue now with VR, will be solved in future.

To compare, we may imagine, that with VR and DCS, we now are back in 1996 with regular PC hardware and high demanding software titles.

[sk000tch]

Now that the mine is bigger than yours/I need to justify my purchase bs has all calmed down, I think you guys made the right decision. I bought (rented) a rift s while waiting on my index, it is not even close. I have not had the opportunity it’s to try a reverb, would like to, but after tinkering with settings I’ve got my index sustaining 60fps at 120hz with no reprojection, it’s silky smooth, I can read everything in a cockpit, mfds included, all the way to the edges. Colors maybe don’t pop as much as vive pro, but zero sde. I literally have nothing negative to say, at most:

 

I’d like more content that takes advantage of finger tracking, but that will come.

I’d like a quick hornet to turn chaperone on and off, pretty sure I just haven’t figured that out.

It’s expensive

 

That’s it really... There’s nothing wrong with the other HMDs, but it’s literally like going from something good (say, WH gimbal), to something like gunfighter or virpil mongoose. Both quality products, but you can (and will) spend hours marveling at the quality of manufacturing and design of a gunfighter base. The other is just a piece of plastic that works ok and will void your warranty if you look too close. Again, nothing wrong with the former, but it’s a different kind of product

[redcoat22]

Sk000tch,

 

Can you post a detailed account of your settings for both the HMD and the game? I’m getting good performance but Not quite that good

[Thadiun Okona]

[Baldrick33]

I am new to these forums but these are some of the best discussions on VR options I have seen for flight and sim racing.

 

I am lucky enough to have a fully working Reverb, no issues and tracks flawlessly for the seated sims which is all I want it for. I also have an IPD of 65 so smack in the range for best clarity. I use speakers for sound and headset for speech so the headphones are ok. Prior to the Reverb I have had a DK2, CV1, Odyssey+ and Pimax 5k+.

 

I think the Reverb is great for flight sims and has re-invigorated my interest in DCS buying more than perhaps I should in the Steam sale ???? I don’t miss the FOV of the Pimax preferring the clarity of the Reverb

 

That said I am intrigued by the index and its reported clarity across a wider range and higher refresh. I am not sure on the clarity side given my ideal IPD for the Reverb and whether 60fps reprojected at 120 would be a game changer, I would certainly like to achieve a smoother experience if possible. Also I might at some point wish to stop using speakers so the Index audio is another interest.

 

Plus maybe I will wish to do more than seated sims in which case getting the controllers and another base station could be an option (I have one base station currently so would only need the headset)

 

Most discussions comparing Reverb to Index focus on reliability issues, I am keen to compare on features. I have reserved an Index though it may be a while before I get the option to purchase. It seems the only way to compare given the preferences we all have for VR.

[Baldrick33]

On the iRacing forums people are reporting fatigue using the Index and very slight double vision. I recall DCS having similar issues with vertical offset with devices with canted screens. Are Index users here having any issues with vision for long term use or is this fixed now?

[RealDCSpilot]

Even if you know your IPD, the perfect value in the HMD may differ because of factors like face shape and eye angles. Not everyone's eye axis are perfectly straight and parallel. If you don't set this right, eye fatique may become a problem, you have to take your time to find the perfect fit.

[Baldrick33]

Yeh, iRacing seems particularly affected with imperfect stereo vision with some of the newer headsets especially when running single pass stereo. DCS and Elite Dangerous also seemed affected some while ago (Odyssey+ especially) so I wondered if this was still an issue here as the Index seems to be causing the same issue with iRacing.

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

On the iRacing forums people are reporting fatigue using the Index and very slight double vision. I recall DCS having similar issues with vertical offset with devices with canted screens. Are Index users here having any issues with vision for long term use or is this fixed now?

 

 

 

I’ve been using it daily, no eye fatigue so far but DCS isn’t the same as fast paced racing games.

 

I suspect incorrect IPD setting can contribute to some of these visual issues. The IPD slider, while a great option to have, isn’t very accurate. Sometimes when I adjusted it the displayed number didn’t change even when the screens themselves moved.

 

I also found that you can move the screens further apart beyond 70 mm by placing an object in between which forces them to go beyond the max position on the IPD slider. This might be good for people with IPD >70 mm who don’t want to resort to software adjustment solution.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Supmua

[Johnny Dioxin]

Guy just posted in the Index reddit saying he has zero issues with racing and flight sims. Or anything else...

 

 

(+) Cockpit games with 120+hz and low persistence: 120+hz and ultra low persistence has finally made racing and cockpit based games viable (for me). Prior to this, it always felt like my eyes would lose track of the image or that they "couldn't keep up". Turns out it's the image in the headset that couldn't keep up with what my eyes were expecting. The experience is so much better that it actually feels soothing to go around those turns now. An entirely new class of VR games are now accessible to me and I suspect to many other people as well. I still have trouble with the lack of variable focus in this context but I was surprised to find that this got me over the threshold of tolerability. And smooth locomotion in general is just so much better.

[Supmua]

Ok, I've been playing DCS on my Index everyday since it came out and am now fully convinced that's it's better than my Vive Pro.

 

Vibrance and black level aside, there's nothing else that the Vive Pro does better. Clarity in particular, really shines on the Index especially with distance spotting. On the Vive Pro the clarity is only good in the center area only whereas on the Index it is almost edge to edge with even superior clarity in the center due to subpixel fill-in. Ground objects pop more since they don't become blurry outside the center area of the screen, when I look for ground targets I tend to go in from the side instead of head-on approach and there is tangible improvement in this area.

 

Playing at 120Hz screen refresh mode with 60 fps is also quite comfortable for long term play. I don't have as much eye fatigue compared to my Vive Pro. Panning my head side to side quickly is just smooth and feels natural. So, I'm a believer in higher screen refresh rate.

 

I find that when I wear my older pair of glasses which don't have up to date prescriptions, SDE isn't visible (this is at the expense of slight loss in sharpness). Glasses with wider frame (my newer pair with up to date prescription) can be tricky to fit inside the removable facial gasket which is quite narrow, and this can cause issues with image clarity/double vision unless the gasket is moved away from the face. I place a stacked neodynium magnets (5x1 mm) on each of the four magnetic spots in front of the removable face gasket to keep the screen further away from my face and it does help with the image quality but fitting is still not perfect compared to smaller pair of glasses. A better solution would be a wider facial gasket that can accommodate wider frame glasses, someone better make one soon. Wearing my contact lens still yields the best sharpness at the expense of noticeable SDE.

 

There has been no real issues with my Index and DCS so far, no white flash, black flash, flickering, screen going blank, etc. It's been very solid, performance-wise, and with the latest version of Revive I can play all my Oculus exclusive games. It is even better with other VR specific games that fully support Index finger tracking.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Supmua

[RealDCSpilot]

I was flying the Mirage for a couple of weeks with my Vive Pro, when i entered the cockpit with the Index for the first time it gave me the shivers. The opened up FOV and massive clarity... Yessss!

[Nagilem]

@supmua - that is my experience as well. Improved clarity and great experience across the board. This was a great purchase for me.

[sk000tch]

Supmua-

 

We’ve got almost identical setups and I’ve been tinkering with index, well not daily, but as much as life allows. My opinion is very similar to yours, it’s fantastic. But what have you settled on for settings? I thought I had it dialed it, but I’m right at the point where there is a trade off, I just can’t maintain 60 FPS with the settings I want for clarity (in certain situations/locations). My rig couldn’t be faster, I got lucky in the lottery on both cpu/gpu, my ram is at 3866, I even did a fresh windows install day before I got index

[Supmua]

Supmua-

 

We’ve got almost identical setups and I’ve been tinkering with index, well not daily, but as much as life allows. My opinion is very similar to yours, it’s fantastic. But what have you settled on for settings? I thought I had it dialed it, but I’m right at the point where there is a trade off, I just can’t maintain 60 FPS with the settings I want for clarity (in certain situations/locations). My rig couldn’t be faster, I got lucky in the lottery on both cpu/gpu, my ram is at 3866, I even did a fresh windows install day before I got index

 

Currently, I use Steam custom res 116%

60FPS in the air, 40 in Downtown Dubai and on the ground at airports.

These settings are still evolving, I could squeeze out better FPS at lower SteamSS or disable the shadow or lower water detail--but it took a lot out of the good experiences which would make me rather fly on my 4k OLED TV (I still prefer the 4k OLED route since when I sit next to the TV the detail level is crazy good without sacrificing FPS and the screen still fills up my peripheral vision, but I still enjoy flying in VR).

 

I usually only play in the dark at night when my wife is asleep, another good point of Index tracking I neglected to mention.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Supmua

[terrydew]

Getting Index Early

 

I reserved the complete set when it said September delivery but I got the email to order yesterday with shipping in 5 to 7 days. It’s on the way.

[RePhil]

How does the NVG form the F-18 look in the Index