Valve Index Hands On

[Supmua]

Got a chance to test Hornet in PG Dubai in VR and fps is about what I expected (this is with the latest SteamVR beta and NVIDIA control panel). Noted that I'm now using the same settings for both VR and 4KTV. I'm getting 40 fps in 80 Hz mode consistently except one spot in downtown when flying low among tall buidlings while looking all the way to the side (went below 40), only for a few sec. The following is the setting which is fairly demanding, also PD 1.4, SteamVR SS 100%. The screen resolution was lowered for the purpose of screen grab, normally at 4K. I could get consistent 40 fps by either switching shadows to flat or turning off MSAA.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Supmua

[Wicked.-]

Tonight I switched to Steam settings at 100%, bumped DCS Pixel Density to 1.6 and turned off MSAA. I flew a really easy version of the Snowfox mission for about 4 hours. I originally took of out off Sharjah and flew low over the city between it and the coast (I believe Dubai). With the other settings I would drag down to the 30's until about 10,000 ft. With PD at 1.6 it stayed locked at 45. Occasionally it would go below 45 but not long enough to be annoying. 1.6 also cleaned up some of the aliasing where I only notice it on the ground when looking at the yellow stripes. There is still some aliasing in the cockpit when the sun is glaring but nowhere near as bad.

MSAA is taking a heavier toll now and I don't know why. Again it seems to have happened recently. I can no longer use my previous settings (In the Viper) of 148%/138% with MSAA @ 2x. The MFD's aren't as clear anymore either but they've been nasty since release. One last observation while running at 1.6PD is the texture of the panels is clearer and the color isn't as washed out.

While testing the changes I tried switching back to SteamVR Beta from stable and it wouldn't let me. It did the same thing when I went to stable but after messing with it more it finally worked but won't now. I wish updates would quit breaking shit lol.

[Wicked.-]

Got a chance to test Hornet in PG Dubai in VR and fps is about what I expected (this is with the latest SteamVR beta and NVIDIA control panel). Noted that I'm now using the same settings for both VR and 4KTV. I'm getting 40 fps in 80 Hz mode consistently except one spot in downtown when flying low among tall buidlings while looking all the way to the side (went below 40), only for a few sec. The following is the setting which is fairly demanding, also PD 1.4, SteamVR SS 100%. The screen resolution was lowered for the purpose of screen grab, normally at 4K. I could get consistent 40 fps by either switching shadows to flat or turning off MSAA.

 

 

I'm pretty sure water set to high has no effect on frame rates. At least not in my testing.

[Stoatmaster]

I've been following some of the settings here and managed to get my Index to a point where I get a good frame rate and the cockpits are lovely and clear.

 

I'm still getting a little tearing now and then near the ground and a noticeable shimmer on objects at distance.

 

Any thoughts on clearing that up? My settings are pretty much as above, except my PD is set as 1.0 at the moment. (I didn't notice a massive difference between 1.0 and 1.4 intially - That made a huge difference on the CV1 however!)

 

Running;

I7-9700k @ 3.6

RTX 2070

32GB DDR 4

[Wicked.-]

Which jets are you flying is my first question. My first suggestion is to OC your 9700. It's a good chip with lots of headroom and you WILL see a difference. If your PD is at 1.0 what are you setting SteamVR custom resolution to? What are you setting DCS Application super sampling to?

 

There are several approaches. Up until the last couple weeks my settings were:

DCS Pixel Density 1.0

SteamVR Custom Resolution 148%

SteamVR DCS Application Super Sampling 138%

DCS MSAA @ 2x

 

 

These settings worked beautifully until the last couple weeks. MSAA @ 2x usually will eliminate aliasing but the tearing will probably get worse from lower frame rates.

 

I agree with you about PD not being as effective in the Index as it was in the CV1 but it does work. I think the ceiling is 1.6. Anything higher and I can't tell a difference.

[Wicked.-]

After more testing tonight I've confirmed there isn't anything wrong with my Index or computer. After trying every setting combination ever discussed on this thread, trying all the Windows tweaks listed above but not seeing any improvement to the Viper, I decided to fly the Hornet. I haven't touched it since the Vipers release. First I set my settings back to where they usually are which is 148% CR/138% DCS Steam App, 1.0 PD and no MSAA. I set my DCS IPD back to 58 from 53 in the Viper and launched the instant action free flight. Beautiful. It looks as good as ever. I can read all of the switches, gauges, DDI's and MPCD without so much as leaning in. Frame rates were rock solid at 45 with hardly any aliasing.

After seeing this result I decided to dust off the M2000...... HOLY SHIT!! It's GORGEOUS!! It was so clear and so smooth I was close to getting vertigo! I had seen something about it getting an updated cockpit, if so bravo to Razbam!

So, it's not my rig or the Index that is making the Viper look like shit, it's the Viper. To my knowledge ED hasn't acknowledged the poor visibility of the MFD's or HUD yet. It's early access so I'll hold off losing my shit for now. But, if they think I'll accept the current cockpit visuals they are mistaken. Anyone who has another module can see there are big issues. We'll see though.

[Nahemoth]

Got a chance to test Hornet in PG Dubai in VR and fps is about what I expected (this is with the latest SteamVR beta and NVIDIA control panel). Noted that I'm now using the same settings for both VR and 4KTV. I'm getting 40 fps in 80 Hz mode consistently except one spot in downtown when flying low among tall buidlings while looking all the way to the side (went below 40), only for a few sec. The following is the setting which is fairly demanding, also PD 1.4, SteamVR SS 100%. The screen resolution was lowered for the purpose of screen grab, normally at 4K. I could get consistent 40 fps by either switching shadows to flat or turning off MSAA.

 

 

Supmua, what did you set in nvidia control panel?

[Icebeat]

After more testing tonight I've confirmed there isn't anything wrong with my Index or computer. After trying every setting combination ever discussed on this thread, trying all the Windows tweaks listed above but not seeing any improvement to the Viper, I decided to fly the Hornet. I haven't touched it since the Vipers release. First I set my settings back to where they usually are which is 148% CR/138% DCS Steam App, 1.0 PD and no MSAA. I set my DCS IPD back to 58 from 53 in the Viper and launched the instant action free flight. Beautiful. It looks as good as ever. I can read all of the switches, gauges, DDI's and MPCD without so much as leaning in. Frame rates were rock solid at 45 with hardly any aliasing.

After seeing this result I decided to dust off the M2000...... HOLY SHIT!! It's GORGEOUS!! It was so clear and so smooth I was close to getting vertigo! I had seen something about it getting an updated cockpit, if so bravo to Razbam!

So, it's not my rig or the Index that is making the Viper look like shit, it's the Viper. To my knowledge ED hasn't acknowledged the poor visibility of the MFD's or HUD yet. It's early access so I'll hold off losing my shit for now. But, if they think I'll accept the current cockpit visuals they are mistaken. Anyone who has another module can see there are big issues. We'll see though.

 

The problem is not the ED's viper version, it is not ED fault that Lockheed Martin decided to use small screens positioned at a very far distance as MDF, the guys from the OTHER F-16 simulator have the same legibility problems with the MDF (even in 2d pancake) and they opted after a big polemic to add an option for high contrast colors.

Should ED implement hight color contract or differents fonts in the Viper? maybe but considering how this community reacts to a not 100% fidelity it is hard to say. As someone asked the other day "why can the viper only have one 120 per station?"

Edited November 6, 2019 by Icebeat

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

This is why I don’t like flying the Viper in VR, the MFDs are not well adapted for it. Those blue lines are barely visible, already faint in 2D. It’s much more enjoyable with my 4KTV setup, everything pops with the NVIDIA sharpness on.

[Supmua]

Supmua, what did you set in nvidia control panel?

 

 

 

My NV control panel settings isn’t just for VR, and just like DCS I use the same global settings for everything to keep it simple.

 

Sharpness 0.7, ignore film grain 0

AA 2X, enhanced applications

MFAA

Max performance

Everything else default

[CobaltUK]

The problem is not the ED's viper version, it is not ED fault that Lockheed Martin decided to use small screens positioned at a very far distance as MDF, the guys from the OTHER F-16 simulator have the same legibility problems with the MDF (even in 2d pancake) and they opted after a big polemic to add an option for high contrast colors.

Should ED implement hight color contract or differents fonts in the Viper? maybe but considering how this community reacts to a not 100% fidelity it is hard to say. As someone asked the other day "why can the viper only have one 120 per station?"

 

You are totally off base/wide of the mark

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

Hmm did ED do anything to enhance the F-16C cockpit with the latest OB update? Just flew the Viper in VR to test some joystick profiles with my typical settings and everything now looks really good inside the cockpit, and that includes MFD screens (did not try TGP). The only other things I did differently was using prescription glass inserts instead of multi-focal contact lens, NVIDIA control panel adjustments, and new SteamVR update. The texts on the HUD actually look impressive now, I'm really enjoying it in VR.

 

EDIT: I'm actually a bit stunned right now as DCS never looked this good on my Index. Buildings are actually sharp when flying low in Dubai, and I don't say this lightly as I've been flying mostly on my 4KTV the past few weeks. I'm not sure what could've made the big difference tonight. Every plane I tested looked so good, Harrier, Hornet, Viper, etc. Heck I can even read the CDU on the A-10 without having to lean in. Had to lower the visibility to medium as fps dropped below 40 in Dubai on high visibility, but shadows are still on low and everything looks so sharp barely any shimmering with MSSA 2x--and now 40+ fps everywhere.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Supmua

[Wicked.-]

Hmm did ED do anything to enhance the F-16C cockpit with the latest OB update? Just flew the Viper in VR to test some joystick profiles with my typical settings and everything now looks really good inside the cockpit, and that includes MFD screens (did not try TGP). The only other things I did differently was using prescription glass inserts instead of multi-focal contact lens, NVIDIA control panel adjustments, and new SteamVR update. The texts on the HUD actually look impressive now, I'm really enjoying it in VR.

 

EDIT: I'm actually a bit stunned right now as DCS never looked this good on my Index. Buildings are actually sharp when flying low in Dubai, and I don't say this lightly as I've been flying mostly on my 4KTV the past few weeks. I'm not sure what could've made the big difference tonight. Every plane I tested looked so good, Harrier, Hornet, Viper, etc. Heck I can even read the CDU on the A-10 without having to lean in. Had to lower the visibility to medium as fps dropped below 40 in Dubai on high visibility, but shadows are still on low and everything looks so sharp barely any shimmering with MSSA 2x--and now 40+ fps everywhere.

 

Are you still using 1.4 PD? I think it's your new prescription lol. I agree that the Hornet looks really good as well as the Mirage but I've got a mixed bag with the Viper. The HUD is fine for now but I've got terrible aliasing in most missions. Except 1 and that's the Dynamic Training Grounds mission. I don't know why but that mission is visually is stunning. The PG version anyway, I haven't flown the Caucasus version. But while the Viper looks best there (to me) the MFD's are still extremely hard to read. In every other mission I've flown, whether SP stock missions or Multi player the aliasing is horrible. It wasn't like this on release. I could use MSAA @ 2x along with my normal settings of 138/148 and PD at 1.0 with rock solid 45 frame rates. Flying the Dynamic Training grounds mission it looks like it did on release but without using MSAA.

 

To Icebeat, the F-16C block 50CJ we have in DCS is a 4th Gen fighter designed for heads up combat. It is designed to be an extension of the pilot. I've said this before on another post but there is no way in hell the Air Force would accept the need for the pilot to lean forward and squint to read the MFD's. Period. I've seen the real MFD's, they are made to be as glare resistant as possible and as bright as possible. At max distance they are no more than 15-20" from the pilots eyes and are also designed to be viewed from any angle. They sit under a glare shield and even if the sun gets through, it doesn't make them less bright. The pilot simply moves his hand to block the glare. Watch the video of a ramp start in Iraq on a C model with color MFD's. That is what we should be seeing. We are not seeing an accurate simulation right now. Also, I've flown that other sim since it's original release, I've been in the same community with those guys for over 17 years. Regardless of how the job gets done, making it as close to the look and feel of the real aircraft and systems has been their only goal. I can fly that program (and do) with the MFD's, instruments and gauges exported through YAME to my 27" touchscreen and they look stunning. They also look stunning on one monitor, the current DCS Viper's don't look good on either.

I'm not being an ass to DCS but trying to help them make the best Viper sim possible. To blame Lockheed Martin's cockpit design for poor VR graphics is rediculous and doesn't aid in solving an obvious problem. This is not asking for multiple 120's on 1 hard point!! :D I'm still amazed that not everyone is a fighter aircraft enthusiast lol.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Wicked.-

[Stoatmaster]

Which jets are you flying is my first question. My first suggestion is to OC your 9700. It's a good chip with lots of headroom and you WILL see a difference. If your PD is at 1.0 what are you setting SteamVR custom resolution to? What are you setting DCS Application super sampling to?

 

There are several approaches. Up until the last couple weeks my settings were:

DCS Pixel Density 1.0

SteamVR Custom Resolution 148%

SteamVR DCS Application Super Sampling 138%

DCS MSAA @ 2x

 

 

These settings worked beautifully until the last couple weeks. MSAA @ 2x usually will eliminate aliasing but the tearing will probably get worse from lower frame rates.

 

I agree with you about PD not being as effective in the Index as it was in the CV1 but it does work. I think the ceiling is 1.6. Anything higher and I can't tell a difference.

 

Mainly F/A-18 at the moment, I have the F-16 but its not in a state yet where I'd like to be flying it day to day. (Which is a shame!)

 

mild clock on the CPU, but seemingly DCS puts very little load on it (Approx 30%). (I can easily tell as the CPU fan is pretty much idle) Running PRIME I can hear the entire system wind up in seconds.

 

GPU is running approx 70%

 

However, just some minor tweaking as you sugested has measurably improved things! I had left the SteamVR settings pretty much stock, so adjusted those as below. I also turned off Ansitrophic Filtering within DCS and wound the PD down.

 

Now running much better framerate, most shimmer has gone, and everything looks that bit nicer! I still get the tearing (Really only a major issue when looking at an external flyby), but I am no longer taking massive frame rate loses on PersianGulf. (Which ran fine with my CV1)

 

Textures are a tiny bit washed out, so will play with them later if needed.

 

Running DCS PD @ 1.0

Suggested Steam VR Custom Res is 130%

SteamVR App Super Sampling is 130%

DCS MSA is x2

Refresh set at 80hz for the moment

 

Are you running motion smoothing? I currently have it enabled.

 

Your help was most appreciated, I can now start enjoying my Index against of fighting it!

[Wicked.-]

Yes, I am running motion smoothing. One thing you mentioned will make a huge difference in spotting targets at distance and is a setting that is non negotiable for me. Anisotropic Filtering needs to be set at 16x in DCS. Leave it application controlled in NVCP. AF cleans up images at distance but doesn't use any type of super sampling to do it so it does not put anywhere near the load on your system as PD or MSAA. I will turn pretty much every other setting down before I will touch AF. It will make a noticeable difference in visual quality.

 

 

 

Otherwise, glad everything is looking better for you!

[Stoatmaster]

Thanks, noted.

 

I'll turn that back on see how the performance fairs.

[Wicked.-]

I just got the new SteamVR beta and now SteamVR keeps failing to load. Switching to stable.

[Wicked.-]

Update. SteamVR will no longer start. Beta or Stable. Rebooting.

[Wicked.-]

Reboot fixed the Stable version but haven't gone back to the beta yet.

[sk000tch]

Wicked there's a firmware update for headset, also new NV drivers. I was having a pretty irritating day rage quit after freezing up after spending 5 min trying to refuel on a rubber banding drogue, not sure if these fix, or if servers just having a bad day - might as well though

[Wicked.-]

LOL, you've just described the last hour of my life. I tried updating the headset but it said it was up to date as well as the base stations. I'll update NV drivers next.

 

 

*edit* I'm all up to date. My issue now is still performance in the Viper since the Oct. 31st update. It's seriously pissing me off that they won't acknowledge it. I guess it hasn't crossed their mind that we customers might fly on this software exponentially more than the 120 employees they say work at ED. I realize not everyone is seeing it but my question is: would everyone notice a difference? Or is it only higher end system owners that are seeing it because of the high settings we are usually capable of?

 

 

 

Sorry, venting lol.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Wicked.-

[imacken]

Wicked there's a firmware update for headset, also new NV drivers. I was having a pretty irritating day rage quit after freezing up after spending 5 min trying to refuel on a rubber banding drogue, not sure if these fix, or if servers just having a bad day - might as well though

 

I didn't see any firmware update, and also, I'm sure I already had the 'standby' option mentioned in the update to 1.8.20 notes.

 

As an aside, did you guys notice the new sharpening option in NCP? I think it came with 441.08. Makes a huge difference in monitor play. Just look at runway textures and cockpits. Haven't had a chance to test in VR yet though.

 

Also, from what I've read and experienced, it has no performance hit.

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

Are you still using 1.4 PD? I think it's your new prescription lol. I agree that the Hornet looks really good as well as the Mirage but I've got a mixed bag with the Viper. The HUD is fine for now but I've got terrible aliasing in most missions. Except 1 and that's the Dynamic Training Grounds mission. I don't know why but that mission is visually is stunning. The PG version anyway, I haven't flown the Caucasus version. But while the Viper looks best there (to me) the MFD's are still extremely hard to read. In every other mission I've flown, whether SP stock missions or Multi player the aliasing is horrible. It wasn't like this on release. I could use MSAA @ 2x along with my normal settings of 138/148 and PD at 1.0 with rock solid 45 frame rates. Flying the Dynamic Training grounds mission it looks like it did on release but without using MSAA.

 

 

 

To Icebeat, the F-16C block 50CJ we have in DCS is a 4th Gen fighter designed for heads up combat. It is designed to be an extension of the pilot. I've said this before on another post but there is no way in hell the Air Force would accept the need for the pilot to lean forward and squint to read the MFD's. Period. I've seen the real MFD's, they are made to be as glare resistant as possible and as bright as possible. At max distance they are no more than 15-20" from the pilots eyes and are also designed to be viewed from any angle. They sit under a glare shield and even if the sun gets through, it doesn't make them less bright. The pilot simply moves his hand to block the glare. Watch the video of a ramp start in Iraq on a C model with color MFD's. That is what we should be seeing. We are not seeing an accurate simulation right now. Also, I've flown that other sim since it's original release, I've been in the same community with those guys for over 17 years. Regardless of how the job gets done, making it as close to the look and feel of the real aircraft and systems has been their only goal. I can fly that program (and do) with the MFD's, instruments and gauges exported through YAME to my 27" touchscreen and they look stunning. They also look stunning on one monitor, the current DCS Viper's don't look good on either.

 

I'm not being an ass to DCS but trying to help them make the best Viper sim possible. To blame Lockheed Martin's cockpit design for poor VR graphics is rediculous and doesn't aid in solving an obvious problem. This is not asking for multiple 120's on 1 hard point!! :D I'm still amazed that not everyone is a fighter aircraft enthusiast lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to be the anti-glare + whatever coating on my lens inserts that dramatically improves contrast and hence sharpness, and for some reason minimizes SDE also—my contacts and glasses prescriptions are the same. I actually have no problem with F-16 MFD sharpness at PD 1.4, it’s just a bit too dim. What I found is that sitting just a bit closer to the HUD can also improve the cockpit text clarity significantly—I typically lean backward and recenter VR to accomplish this.

 

I’m probably going to get a blank lens inserts with coating for use with my contact lens, they will act as scratch protection on the Index lens also.

 

The F-16 cockpit view appears to be more taxing in VR compared to other planes, though.

 

Overall, the image quality improves for me with the most recent settings but the performance goes down.

[Wicked.-]

Awesome! I'm not delusional after all lol. I reformatted my computer today but based on what you're seeing it probably won't help.

 

 

 

Do you have a link for the blank lens inserts? I think I'll try them.

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

The lens are from Zenni but you have to buy a particular glass frame with it which is only $6.95.

 

This frame is a throwaway but the lens fit the lens inserts which is 3D printed, link below.

 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3753906