4K VR Slop

[BiBa]

The properties of my new high-end pc depicted in my signature, ensure me for my FHD monitor a steady 60 FPS with the highest DCS system performance settings. (see pic 1. 60 FPS)

 

But the standard VR-preset for my Pimax 4K is way below the minimum and offers me a very bad result (see pic 2. VR standard)

 

After many tests, the only acceptable setting where cockpit gages and other small details are readable is the following: (see pic 3. VR optimum) The problem with it is that I get around some measly 15 FPS only. Why?

 

A High-end PC like this can't cope with a 4K VR?

I was planning to purchase the 8K Pimax VR, but it seems to get the best out of it; I'll need to purchase also a second G-Force RTX 2080 Ti-SLI.

 

Someone with same Hardware can recommend me what is the best setting for a minimum 30 FPS?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Biba

[Harlikwin]

Whooo boy... You shoulda done some serious product research before buying that pimax.

 

As you noticed The Pimax will not give you good clarity unless you use a ton of super sampling (that would be MSAA). There is no graphics card on earth that can do 4x MSAA with VR at the moment. I'd start looking through the various pimax threads here for what people are doing. I can't comment because I have no experience with their headset. But if you can still return it I would do that and buy a Reverb, which will give you good clarity with no MSAA or 2x MSAA.

 

AFAIK the 8k pimax is just a 4k output upscaled to 8k, so it will look better but the performance required is about the same.

 

Also SLI doesn't work in VR. So I just saved you 1200 bucks. :)

[toutenglisse]

Just a remark : VR (pimax should be same than mine ?) use its own vsync. If you also tick vsync in DCS settings, it messes up fps/smoothness - untick it for VR use.

[dburne]

The Pimax 4k was not that good of a unit, had a lot of issues which is why Pimax needed a Kickstarter to continue with their 5k and 8k devices.

Your rig should run VR quite well, the Pimax 4k is not a good compliment to it.

 

I run an Oculus Rift S and my performance in DCS is quite good with graphics mostly high, I have very similar system specs. It was pretty much plug and play for me, no faffing about and it just works great - been using daily since it was released in May.

 

You should be able to run Reverb well also I would think, lot of folks in here really like it and it has better resolution, but does use WMR and Steam VR currently for DCS. Maybe a little more time tweaking to get optimal results. DCS has native support for Oculus.

 

Some really like the Valve Index as well, though it is certainly for the high end enthusiast and the cost of entry to get everything for it is somewhat steep.

Little less resolution than the Reverb, but a good all around VR headset that can even do room scale good.

 

And no as previously mentioned, SLI does not work with VR.

Edited September 23, 2019 by dburne

[BiBa]

...There is no graphics card on earth that can do 4x MSAA with VR at the moment...

To exploit the 4K full potential, 4X MSAA is mandatory - maybe we have to fetch for some alien-ware then :pilotfly:

...Also SLI doesn't work in VR...

There have been developments recently in 8K VR, where I read about HMD with two HDMI cable connections, two graphic cards, so not a hopeless case.

 

...use its own vsync....it messes up fps/smoothness...

I'll try that - thanks

 

...I run an Oculus Rift S and my performance in DCS is quite good with graphics mostly high, I have very similar system specs. It was pretty much plug and play for me, no faffing about and it just works great...

On one hand its FPS have better performance, but on the other hand, it runs 2560×1440 (1280×1440 per eye), which makes a total of 3.686.400 pixels (WQHD)-(Pixel Density Approx. 600ppi), which is way below the 8.847.360 pix 4K. So beside FPS, how can it display a better pic quality? Edited September 24, 2019 by Biba

[tintifaxl]

So beside FPS, how can it display a better pic quality?

 

It's not all about resolution. Lenses and subpixels play an important role, too.

[Harlikwin]

To exploit the 4K full potential, 4X MSAA is mandatory - maybe we have to fetch for some alien-ware then :pilotfly:

There have been developments recently in 8K VR, where I read about HMD with two HDMI cable connections, two graphic cards, so not a hopeless case.

 

I'll try that - thanks

 

On one hand its FPS have better performance, but on the other hand, it runs 2560×1440 (1280×1440 per eye), which makes a total of 3.686.400 pixels (WQHD)-(Pixel Density Approx. 600ppi), which is way below the 8.847.360 pix 4K. So beside FPS, how can it display a better pic quality?

 

You really need to do some more research. Alot of these issues aren't so much VR problems as they are DCS problems.

 

4x MSAA will kill a 2080ti and even the next generation. Largely due to the fact DCS switch to deferred shaders. Literally no hardware on earth is going to change that fact. It "might" get better for DCS with Vulkan, but thats pure speculation on my part.

 

SLI can work in VR generally speaking, IF the developer supports it. DCS will not support developer specific technologies like VR link, so VR-SLI will never work in DCS unless they change their mind, or there is an open SLI standard that works with both ATI and NVIDIA cards. Neither case is really likely.

 

As others have said, there is way more to a good picture than just the number of pixels. The Reverb has the sharpest image for 3 reasons.

1) High pixel count 2160x2160/eye.

2) Low field of view which means high Pixel per degree FOV.

3) Using LED displays with a RGB 3 subpixel format vs OLED pentile (2 subpixel) format.

 

The biggest issues Pimax has relative to the current generation of headsets are,

#1 OLED screen with 30% less subpixels = much less clarity.

#2 Wide FOV = crappier image clarity since you are smearing those pixels over a much wider field of view.

#3 Low dollar optics for that wide FOV.

[BiBa]

...4x MSAA will kill a 2080ti and even the next generation. Largely due to the fact DCS switch to deferred shaders...

didn't know that - there is indeed some missed homework I have to catch up with...

...The Reverb has the sharpest image for 3 reasons:

1) High pixel count 2160x2160/eye.

2) Low field of view which means high Pixel per degree FOV.

3) Using LED displays with a RGB 3 subpixel format vs OLED pentile (2 subpixel) format...

2160x2160/eye x 2.89" = 1057 ppi display + 6DOF for $650!

Waw - I'll go for that one for sure :thumbup:

https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-vr-headset.html

[Harlikwin]

didn't know that - there is indeed some missed homework I have to catch up with...

2160x2160/eye x 2.89" = 1057 ppi display + 6DOF for $650!

Waw - I'll go for that one for sure :thumbup:

https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-vr-headset.html

 

No worries :thumbup:

 

PPI isn't really all that useful as its the combination of PPI and lens system that determines what you see PPD (Pixels Per Degre FOV) is the real number HMD manufactures should provide as its the most useful. And PPD is inversly related to FOV, so more FOV= less PPD.

 

For reference, human retinal resolution is about 60-70ppd, and 30-40 PPD is about what you see on most 1080p monitors viewed from a reasonable distance. The first generation headsets like the Rift CV1 were about 10-12 PPD, gen 1.5 like the pimax/Vive Pro/Oddesey+ were in the high teens. The reverb is the first second generation HMD with a PPD in the low to mid 20's (depending on who does the math). So its a significant leap from the Gen1.5's. It has its own set of issues being the first one out of the gate.

 

The other thing to consider from a clarity standpoint aside from PPD is if the display uses an RGB or Pentile subpixel layout because the RGB will have 30% more subpixels, which will look "sharper". Currently the Reverb, RiftS, and Valve index have gone to RGB LCD displays for this reason vs the pentile OLED displays of the previous generation. The main downside is that the colors don't look as good on LCD vs OLED.

 

Anyhow, hope that helps. Maybe someday we will have both good FOV and good PPD at a low price. But thats not today.

[eaglecash867]

There is no graphics card on earth that can do 4x MSAA with VR at the moment.

 

My 2080ti does this just fine with the Reverb. I didn't think it would, but I tried it, and it works just fine. Very tiny bit of ghosting here and there, but its rare. I run 4X MSAA all the time now in DCS, and just got my gamma correction dialed in so everything is nice and vivid.

[BiBa]

No worries :thumbup:

 

PPI isn't really all that useful as its the combination of PPI and lens system that determines what you see PPD (Pixels Per Degre FOV) is the real number HMD manufactures should provide...For reference, human retinal resolution is about 60-70ppd...

You're 100% right about the PPD rule of thumb instead of PPI, when dealing with HMD! (FYI The average perception of the human eye retina resolution is 80 PPD)

 

A 4K (8.847.360 pix) 2.98" display viewed in an HMD at a 2.7 Inch distance has a 78.7 PPD, (VARJO VR–1 Bionic Display has also 2.98") which is a little bit below the average vision of 20/15 (80 PPD). Yet there is still the distortion problem in optics dealing with a flat display, which is only solvable when it is replaced with a spherical display, where the scope of the curvature of the display-sphere is synchronized with the distance to the eye field of view; for e.g, a 78.7 pixels per degree are calculated at the flat display focus center, while ~86.5 PPD should be calculated at the edge. (see pic 1.PPD Calculator attached)

 

Anyway, a 5K+ WHXGA GPU performance (2 x 8.847.360 pix) will do the job. For further comparisons see pic 2.Pixels Table attached I made, which also highlights the discrepancies like between UHD & 4K.

 

NVIDIA Automotive Screen Density Calculator:

http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDensityCalculator.html#find:density,pxW:4096,pxH:2160,size:2.98,sizeUnit:in,axis:diag,distance:2.7,distUnit:in

Edited September 25, 2019 by Biba

[Harlikwin]

You're 100% right about the PPD rule of thumb instead of PPI, when dealing with HMD! (FYI The average perception of the human eye retina resolution is 80 PPD)

 

Well, just to nitpick, depending on what definition you use its anywhere form 60-80 ish. 60 IIRC being 20/20 vision.

 

The current best headsets aside from the Varjo bionic which you can't actually buy, is a German startup that has a 36ppd protoype that they want to put into production with a 46 PPD and 1k price point. The only drawback will be the FOV they are aiming for is 85 degrees, which could be pretty narrow compared to current gen headsets. I've got a thread on that somewhere in the first 2 pages.

[BiBa]

Well, just to nitpick, depending on what definition you use its anywhere form 60-80 ish. 60 IIRC being 20/20 vision...

NVIDIA acuity definition:

...the average acuity in adults is about 1.6 times better than 20/20, roughly 20/15 vision, or 80ppd. Visual acuity peaks at around 25 years old and then slowly declines, but even then the average 75 year old has better eyesight than 20/20.

 

...The current best headsets...is a German startup that has a 36ppd prototype that they want to put into production with a 46 PPD and 1k price point...

Are you referring to the Fraunhofer Institute VR in Berlin (where I live)?

[frogger]

hi i previously ran a pimax 4k and i am now running the vive. my system is an old i7-2600k 3.4ghz 24gb ddr3 ram a gtx1070ti and a $50 ssd drive.

 

i would say you are expecting to much from VR, my system i would run the pimax 4k with 1.7 pd and everything on low apart from cockpit textures and visual range and i could read every panel in the m2000 and i could spot aircraft at a much higher distance then the vive. if you have never used a vive or oculus and get the chance u will see how much better the visuals are in the pimax 4k however the tracking and build quality is the down side. even though your pc is kick ass i would set medium settings and fine tune from there

[frogger]

also i just noticed u run MSAA at x4 i found i got really good preformance gains turning this off completely as talked about in jabbers dcs vr guide.

[Harlikwin]

 

Are you referring to the Fraunhofer Institute VR in Berlin (where I live)?

 

No, its a German company called Vality. No idea where they are located.