Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Thanks for taking the effort to highlight this guys - I wish you well. I've kinda given up on LO online for now - just too frustrating. There is no fun in screaming at your monitor - too many exploits/cheats/bugs. 112 really broke alot more than it fixed. As for A2G, duffing up the AI is just too easy - feels like being the class bully! Lets hope that when LO A2A Simming emerges from this current dark age in 3-4years it's been fixed! Well, let me remind you that 1.11 was worse, and 1.1 made AMRAAM's totaly blind when looking down at steep angles. 1.12 made MARAAM's hit more often but they still miss too often specialy under 10 miles, I agree to that, they work like vietnam era missiles. It would sufice to me to fix the chaff resistence to ARH missiles (leave SARH as they are now), fix AIM-9 range, and the maddoging IR missiles would restaur some truth the art of BVR and dogfighting. .
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Yoda I totally agree with you these exploits really kill the playability of lomac especially in A2A, the 10 meter and barrel roll exploit as well as the RWR last light then pull up exploit really kill A2A duels for me, I've been on servers and watched people fly around at less than 10nm all the time, IRL this is bullshit and it should be stopped but I have a feeling this is'nt going to happen, I was told ED will never lower the radar height, and I agree the sidewinder in LO is a joke. Like I said in the previous post, once some of the most obvious bugs are fixed the other exploits will be used less often since people will not want to risk to become close enough for some of the stunts you describe above. As for the 10m exploit, its tremendously easy to break it. Hold from firing. GEt as high as you can without breaking lock. at 15 miles you should be able to be at 28000 feet with the target locked down below, turn to one side (keep it at 2-3 or 9-10 oclock aprox). Keep watching his altitude all the time. He will try shoot you on the belly but he will do it at the last possible instant. Once at 10 miles drop the nose slighly to mainatin lock on him STT, he wont be able do the same unless he comes up. Keep watching his altitude and get ready for his move. Once he come up to try lock you, then start dumping chaff and flares in short regular intervals, hes going to shoot you soon, but since you already have a lock on him, fire first. Fire another 2 seconds later, while descending on spiral, always keeping him locked. His missiles will be likely to miss. I noticed that missiles have a real hard time hitting targets from below while your executing a descending spiral (keep it at 2-3 or 9-10 oclock aprox). Maintain mach 0.9 while doing this, shouldnt be necessary to afterburn (if you need afterburn at high altitude and then cut it when droping your nose, just before he climbs). If the target never comes above 10m then all you gotta do is to spiral down into his 6 and spew some cannon rounds. He eventualy see the tracers and will turn and climb slighly above 10m, time wich should be easy to hit him with a missile. The pic below ilustrates the tactic. Note the blues STT lock represented by a dashed line, and the reds seek cone (apliabale even with vertical scan). I have poor resources to do better at work. :D .
Guest Crazy_Eyes Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Like I said in the previous post, once some of the most obvious bugs are fixed the other exploits will be used less often since people will not want to risk to become close enough for some of the stunts you describe above. As for the 10m exploit, its tremendously easy to break it. Hold from firing. GEt as high as you can without breaking lock. at 15 miles you should be able to be at 28000 feet with the target locked down below. keep watching his altitude all the time. He will try shoot you on the belly but he will do it at the last possible instant. once at 10 miles drop the nose slighly. Continue ot lock him STT all the time, keep watching his altitude and get ready for his move. Once he starts climbing then start dumping chaff and falres in short regular intervals, hes going to shoot you soon, but since you already have a lock on him, fire first. Fire another 2 seconds later, and then start on descending spiral, always keeping him locked. His missiles will be likely to miss. I noticed that missiles have a real hard time hitting targets from below while executing a descending spiral (keep it at 2-3 or 9-10 oclock aprox). Maintain mach 0.9 while doing this, shouldnt be necessary to afterburn. If the target never comes above 10m then all you gotta do is to spiral down into his 6 and spew some cannon rounds. He eventualy see the tracers and will turn and climb slighly above 10m, time wich should be easy to hit him with a missile. I dont find fighters that sit under radar much of a problem Pilotasso, I have a very good RL tactic for these types of situations, I just dont like the fact that this exploit exsists, it's contary to RL tactics and ruins tactical A2A BVR engagements for real simmers and quite frankly pilots that use the 10 meter exploit are just lame and always end up crashing or being killed. Yoda the Sparrow has a much higher PK in fast turning CQC combat at -2nm, which is also very unrealistic, I always use Sparrows instead of Sidewinders.
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 After being killed 3 times in a row, the low fliers will usualy stop using it. ;) They havent already because there isnt not enough people countering it effectively yet. .
vadIL Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 After being killed 3 times in a row, the low fliers will usualy stop using it. ;) They havent already because there isnt not enough people countering it effectively yet. The idea not to look for "solutions" on this situations... What we lose here is, The whole BVR that no exicist in lockon... If I face bandit that knows all this "tricks" I will lose with my 8 amraams... Cause I dont use and I dont want to know how to use this exploits... Now lockon looks like mid 60's fighting type.. when u can brake missle by pulling just 9 g.
UWBuRn Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 It would sufice to me to fix the chaff resistence to ARH missiles (leave SARH as they are now), fix AIM-9 range, and the maddoging IR missiles would restaur some truth the art of BVR and dogfighting. Sorry, but i must disagree: try spoofing a R-27ER or an AIM-7 by flying straight to the missile and dumping chaffs: that ALWAYS works. :mad: Both ARH and SARH missiles needs to be fixed and let me remind you that Flankers only carry SARH, so fixing only ARH would give an unfair and unrealistc advantage to the Eagle and to the Fulcrum. :doh: As for ET sniping, i agree, it's exagerated and must be fixed but: 1. With broken ERs, sometimes your only chance is the ET, so no surprise that's so much exploited 2. Some ppl should learn to cut the AB when the IR threat is high: too easy complaining about being blasted when you're going full AB all the time (not your case, BUT someone does that)
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 It would give unfair advantage to f-15 its true but I also believe it would be more realistic. R-27's are obsolete for many years. They are still very lethal if fired under 25km from an unexpected direction. Head 2 head shooting of SARH will ALWAYS frustrate you because its a lottery. .
UWBuRn Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Obsolete maybe, totally dumb i would bet no... they should be spoofed by chaffs as soon as they enter the rear aspect realm. You can come from an unexpected direction as long as you want but if a couple of chaffs kill the missile then again is useless. Would not be the first time firing ALL my four ERs at a target under 10 km: FOX1, i see the smoke trail turning to the chaff, FOX1, just the same, FOX1, the missile explodes at the chaff, FOX1, it goes behind its tail... WTF!
RvEFuSiOn Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 pilotasso you want to make this an f-15 only sim?
A.S Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Nessary words.. To all out there...... Pointing on these kind of lacks in this sim ( and there are more ) was and became a hot discussion...... Should we speak it out, should we show it ? ... should we keep it silent...? ... will that be a manual for all to screw it full up? ... will that turn back in bad way and will evil win instead of the good meaning of it speaking it out? Well, we will see but there is a saying ..you can fool one person all the time ..you can fool all once a time .. but u cant fool all all the time .... and for the common good .... these things have to be shown.... i dont know excatly, how and in what way ED is thinking, acting or how their philosophy of these products are.... i only can see it from the replies...but YES we do want to support ED to make things better....and we hope to be listened..... Not everything said - especially this never ending discussions bout real word and reality ( yeah right all realpilots here dodging missiles every day ) - is usefull, and only complaining and destroying the beauty of it doesnґt help either, but few things are just tooo off....MUST BE changed. I still do believe that ED has the ability to make outstanding products if they want to..... and again...we will see. To ED .... dont take this personal...this is positiv critics. In respect to all 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Frostie Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Excellent video highlighting some which are def exploits and some which im unsure about such as notching Aim-7's im sure this is viable but not aquiring lock until 1.5nm im not so sure. Evading missiles by barrel rolling etc. can be achieved against all missiles - made a hell of a lot easier with labels on:), it becomes a learned skill IMO in the heat of ace setting engagements not always resulting in survival something a real pilot wouldn't risk unless there was no alternative( for example in the vid all missile follow the same path if fired at different aspects pk is improved ), though I would agree some tweaking is needed. Granted the Aim-9 sucks, the 10m exploit is shameless IR's are the only answer. And chaff has wrongly become the most valuable tool in LO. Hopefully the exploits can be ironed out.:thumbup: "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
Guest Crazy_Eyes Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 The idea not to look for "solutions" on this situations... What we lose here is, The whole BVR that no exicist in lockon... If I face bandit that knows all this "tricks" I will lose with my 8 amraams... Cause I dont use and I dont want to know how to use this exploits... Now lockon looks like mid 60's fighting type.. when u can brake missle by pulling just 9 g. Exactly!, I'd like to see some real BVR fights going on in LO, the types of BVR fights that take several minutes to win and can take half your weapons payload to win a kill is a dream for me that LO does not offer, if you put yourself into your enemies NEZ and you have been the tactically weaker opponent you deserve to die!, resulting to using exploits to beat someone who has been tactically stronger than you is just lame. A cure is always better than a solution, cure the exploits plz ed.
159th_Viper Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Excellent Vid =RVE= :matrix: Honestly Glad to be a Bomber-Boy..............watching that saddens me that I have not the Desire nor the Patience to suspend belief to such an extent that I will honestly be able to strap myself into a Fast-Jet and Engage in "Realistic" (or as close to as) Air to Air Combat and walk away from the experience with Satisfaction and Enjoyment rather than Disappointment and Frustration................... Maybe One Day.............. 1 Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
504Goon Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Untill releasing DCS or 1.13 patch it's better to switch to bomber wing and fly on A2G servers i think. Or better yet, do some BFM:) Good vid RvE, those (and some others) are the very reason i have pretty much had it with Lomac BVR. :( 504th CO http://www.vvs504.co.uk
VMFA117_Poko Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Or better yet, do some BFM:)This is fun, true. I flew few days ago on 104th server after 504th members flying 4 ship echelon. I tried to catch up but they broke for landing on Novosybirsk in sequence with 4g turn. Amazing view. Just amazing. 1
S77th-konkussion Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 LOL.. This is some pathetic stuff here. Nice job, RvE. Flying SU33's and T frogs w/ no active MRM's you tend to forget how badly screwed up this is. VooDoo- post something so I can rep you , man. :) [sIGPIC]http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=43337&d=1287169113[/sIGPIC]
X-man Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Yes, the exploits exist. But it's not like everyone is using them. When I get on HL, I rarely see any of this stuff. Usually We (504) are able have good engagements vs some lonewolfs and, from time to time, some other squad guys. Not to mention squad events like LOCERF, squadmatches etc...Where the exploits are used in a negliable amount. For example, our recent encounter with RvE :thumbup: I saw barrelrolling only three or four times, from both sides, out of all the launches made, and thats pretty much it. Most of the missile was deafeted by turning tails before they could do any damage.... Fix the problems, yes, but I wouldnt say it's destoying the sim or that everyone is using it... 64th Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 135.181.115.54
GGTharos Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 That sounds like the RL experience with that series of missiles actually ... though the source is a touch iffy. :) Obsolete maybe, totally dumb i would bet no... they should be spoofed by chaffs as soon as they enter the rear aspect realm. You can come from an unexpected direction as long as you want but if a couple of chaffs kill the missile then again is useless. Would not be the first time firing ALL my four ERs at a target under 10 km: FOX1, i see the smoke trail turning to the chaff, FOX1, just the same, FOX1, the missile explodes at the chaff, FOX1, it goes behind its tail... WTF! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Guest Crazy_Eyes Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Yes, the exploits exist. But it's not like everyone is using them. When I get on HL, I rarely see any of this stuff. X-man fly on the RAF server, All these exploits are used commonly by alot of the fighters, the main culprit is the 10 meter exploit.
GGTharos Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 The MiG-23 could do it at several KM RL, without a look-down capable radar. The F-15 can do it much, much better than that RL. If you were down to notching an F-15 you should be thinking of running away at this point 'cause you're defensive ... naturally, N/A lock on. Excellent video highlighting some which are def exploits and some which im unsure about such as notching Aim-7's im sure this is viable but not aquiring lock until 1.5nm im not so sure. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Guest Crazy_Eyes Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 That sounds like the RL experience with that series of missiles actually ... though the source is a touch iffy. :) GG I read a report that when east and west Germany reunited and became NATO certain NATO countries became very intrested in the new russian missile stockpile for the MiG-29A's and that report stated that the ER's were an inferiour missile compared to western counterparts and that NATO had drastically underestimated the R-73, Is this the same report your talking about?.
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 pilotasso you want to make this an f-15 only sim? No, but the only reason I dont fly Su-27 more often is because of the absurd ECM 13 mile burn through threshold. This is the only F-15 true advantage. you can jam but I still know the range to you.;) .
Guest Crazy_Eyes Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 No, but the only reason I dont fly Su-27 more often is because of the absurd ECM 13 mile burn through threshold. This is the only F-15 true advantage. you can jam but I still know the range to you.;) Pilotasso am I correct in assuming that the ECM burnthrough is the same distance for all aircraft in LO 13nm?.
504Goon Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 There's a bug in the F-15 which allows range even when being jammed. Though IRL there are ways to at least estimate the range to the target even if it's jamming. 504th CO http://www.vvs504.co.uk
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 X-man fly on the RAF server, All these exploits are used commonly by alot of the fighters, the main culprit is the 10 meter exploit. RAF server is wildely abused by everybody. I dont know what triggers everybody's savagery there but they behave completely when they swich to other servers. .
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