How to get over the G limit and the AOA limit?

[Kumabit]

LMAO. That’s the entire point of the FCS. It’s doing exactly what it’s supposed to do.

 

All aircraft should be able to let the pilot directly control the aircraft, preparing for the FCS failure

[LJQCN101]

All aircraft should be able to let the pilot directly control the aircraft, preparing for the FCS failure

 

The FCS will automatically enter direct link mode if 4 channels DFCS and 2 channels EFCS all failed. Before that the FCS will also automatically enter EFCS if 3 channels DFCS fails. If 3 channels DFCS and 2 channels EFCS fails, you're then on single channel DFCS. (All implemented.)

 

EFCS is designed for landing purpose only and will limit maximum pitch rate to 12.8 deg/s. It doesn't have G or AOA feedback so you'll still able to over-G the aircraft at high speeds.

Edited December 19, 2019 by LJQCN101

[Kumabit]

The FCS will automatically enter direct link mode if 4 channels DFCS and 2 channels EFCS all failed. Before that the FCS will also automatically enter EFCS if 3 channels DFCS fails.

 

EFCS is designed for landing purpose only and will limit maximum pitch rate to 12.8 deg/s. It doesn't have G or AOA feedback so you'll still able to over-G the aircraft at high speeds.

 

Thanks for the information! So JF-17 no longer allows pilots to "direct control"(I mean like the flankers) the aircraft like the last patch?

[Terrorban]

Time to hotwire our custom JF-17 . Lets rip those channels out. Post apocalyptic syle. :D

 

All jokes aside, What are the chances we will get a full FCS failure in DCS? How did you implement it? What causes the channels to fail?

 

Sorry for my ignorance but I am learning more about modern jets as more and more systems become simulated here.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Terrorban
Typos

[LJQCN101]

Thanks for the information! So JF-17 no longer allows pilots to "direct control"(I mean like the flankers) the aircraft like the last patch?

 

No it won't anymore. You can try setting random failures on all channels of DFCS and EFCS. It's a lot more unforgiving (less static stability) than the flanker.

[LJQCN101]

Time to hotwire our custom JF-17 . Lets rip those channels out. Post apocalyptic syle. :D

 

All jokes aside, What are the chances we will get a full FCS failure in DCS? How did you implement it? What causes the channels to fail?

 

Sorry for my ignorance but I am learning more about modern jets as more and more systems become simulated here.

 

You can get FCS failure by overheating the FCS computer, or battle damage to sensors on the nose / computers around the cockpit, hydraulics failures, electric or mechanic damage on the control surface links (of roll/yaw CAS).

[AeriaGloria]

You can get FCS failure by overheating the FCS computer, or battle damage to sensors on the nose / computers around the cockpit, hydraulics failures, electric or mechanic damage on the control surface links (of roll/yaw CAS).

 

So what your saying is.... leaving the ECS switch off is a road to fun......

[LJQCN101]

So what your saying is.... leaving the ECS switch off is a road to fun......

 

It won't burn down everything, but eventually the aircraft will be less responsive.

[AeriaGloria]

It won't burn down everything, but eventually the aircraft will be less responsive.

 

Yes! I guess if heat exhaustion or hypothermia doesn’t come first:)

[LJQCN101]

Yes! I guess if heat exhaustion or hypothermia doesn’t come first:)

 

Oh and the pilot will shake his hands / behave like crazy when he feels too cold or too hot.

[AeriaGloria]

That’s an insane level of detail, can’t wait to see it in game

[skywalker22]

So there is no way to over G the Jeff? Max G is only at 6. 

It can also go up to 6.9G when flying under 400 knots (between 370-390 seems to be optimum to be 6.5 to 6.9Gs. But thats about it - very very limited aircraft, hard to use it in any dogfight.

Edited May 2, 2024 by skywalker22

[Tango3B]

49 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

So there is no way to over G the Jeff? Max G is only at 6. 

It can also go up to 6.9G when flying under 400 knots (between 370-390 seems to be optimum to be 6.5 to 6.9Gs. But thats about it - very very limited aircraft, hard to use it in any dogfight.

 

Well, you sure can. So, for example when defending against a missile and you do a split S while being quite fast you can easily go beyond 9G. Just switch the EFCS on and make sure you also are in DIR LINK. As long as you are fast this gives you more available G. When you are starting to get slower switch EFCS back off. 
Also, for normal maneuvering, I always fly with DIR LINK on. That way I have no problem reaching 8G+ between 360-390 kts. I believe this mode takes the weird AOA restriction off of your jet so I actually feel very comfortable dogfighting this way. Just make sure you switch DIR LINK off again before landing…

So yeah, the Jeff is certainly not as limited as some people think. Just use these modes…play around with them and you see what I mean. DIR LINK works wonders when fighting a Hornet, for example… ;-D

[skywalker22]

1 hour ago, Tango3B said:

Well, you sure can. So, for example when defending against a missile and you do a split S while being quite fast you can easily go beyond 9G. Just switch the EFCS on and make sure you also are in DIR LINK. As long as you are fast this gives you more available G. When you are starting to get slower switch EFCS back off. 
Also, for normal maneuvering, I always fly with DIR LINK on. That way I have no problem reaching 8G+ between 360-390 kts. I believe this mode takes the weird AOA restriction off of your jet so I actually feel very comfortable dogfighting this way. Just make sure you switch DIR LINK off again before landing…

So yeah, the Jeff is certainly not as limited as some people think. Just use these modes…play around with them and you see what I mean. DIR LINK works wonders when fighting a Hornet, for example… ;-D

Thx. But it works really strange, in some cases it over Gs when EFCS switch is on AUTO (up), and other times when on EFCS (down). Is there any reasonable explanation why is that so?

[paco2002]

4 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

So there is no way to over G the Jeff? Max G is only at 6. 

It can also go up to 6.9G when flying under 400 knots (between 370-390 seems to be optimum to be 6.5 to 6.9Gs. But thats about it - very very limited aircraft, hard to use it in any dogfight.

 

If you think more G's are more good for dogfight... Try again, it's not correct.

The JF-17 is limited to 6Gs over 350kts, and to 8Gs below 350

3 hours ago, Tango3B said:

Well, you sure can. So, for example when defending against a missile and you do a split S while being quite fast you can easily go beyond 9G. Just switch the EFCS on and make sure you also are in DIR LINK. As long as you are fast this gives you more available G. When you are starting to get slower switch EFCS back off. 
Also, for normal maneuvering, I always fly with DIR LINK on. That way I have no problem reaching 8G+ between 360-390 kts. I believe this mode takes the weird AOA restriction off of your jet so I actually feel very comfortable dogfighting this way. Just make sure you switch DIR LINK off again before landing…

So yeah, the Jeff is certainly not as limited as some people think. Just use these modes…play around with them and you see what I mean. DIR LINK works wonders when fighting a Hornet, for example… ;-D

While it's true that with EFCS and DIR LINK you can get more G's and insane turns... It is not for that, those are emergency modes that are needed in case of... emergency... EFCS changes to a secondary mode of the FCS and should only be used to fly the plane back to the nearest airfield. DIR LINK gives full autority of the FCS everytime the planes reaches de AoA limit (that way, you can overshoot the limiter) but this mode should only be used if things go wrong and need to use full autority to get out of a difficult situation, like a flatspin.

2 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Thx. But it works really strange, in some cases it over Gs when EFCS switch is on AUTO (up), and other times when on EFCS (down). Is there any reasonable explanation why is that so?

Because with EFCS the G limit dissapears, and the FCS of the plane works with other calculations of the FCS, IIRC the plae will only work with AoA limits, so in that case, the speed and altitude will be the factors that will make the plane surpass or stay below the 6 or 8 G limit with AUTO FCS.

 

And, take care of your wings, since overstressing them will break them.

And one last thing, why the need of using emergency modes for dogfighting? This remembers me of the paddle drama on the F18 lol  

[Tango3B]

2 hours ago, paco2002 said:

While it's true that with EFCS and DIR LINK you can get more G's and insane turns... It is not for that, those are emergency modes that are needed in case of... emergency... EFCS changes to a secondary mode of the FCS and should only be used to fly the plane back to the nearest airfield. DIR LINK gives full autority of the FCS everytime the planes reaches de AoA limit (that way, you can overshoot the limiter) but this mode should only be used if things go wrong and need to use full autority to get out of a difficult situation, like a flatspin.

I am aware of this and I mostly agree. I am also fully aware what the manual states about the FCS. But here is the thing…Skywalker asked if it can be done and I told him how to do it. You can do really wild stuff with the Jeff that way…

Should the FCS be used that way? Probably not because you basically override the built in safety features. But as a pilot I absolutely do not care. If I can manage to fly the jet in this very configuration to get an edge over my opponent I will absolutely do it. While it might take some getting used to flying the Jeff to its absolute limits it is fully worth it. Do I want to defend against a missile at high speed at only 6G available or will I take the 9G option? You might damn well know my answer. Remember your goal is to always max-perform your jet to get her home and not to recite the manual. Fighting is for men, not for intellectuals…

In a doghfight at slower speeds using only DIR LINK (EFCS has to be in AUTO, then!) gives you a tremendous amount of AOA if I need it and I do overshoot the normal limits. Try it against a Hornet or a M2K in a 1 circle when you are really slow. See what happens and what this jet can do. Again, I absolutely do not care what is written in the manual - which by the way also actively discourages the use of the gun in A/A. Ridiculous, try harder. Let me put it this way…use these functions only if you understand BFM. You should never end up slow in an unfavorable position…I think we can both agree on that. Thank you.

[Napillo]

4 hours ago, paco2002 said:

why the need of using emergency modes for dogfighting

if you're in a dogfighting competition, any edge you can get will be used, even if it doesn't make sense at all in a warzone. Fighter pilots gonna cheat any way they can to win.

[paco2002]

On 5/2/2024 at 9:16 PM, Napillo said:

if you're in a dogfighting competition, any edge you can get will be used, even if it doesn't make sense at all in a warzone. Fighter pilots gonna cheat any way they can to win.

 

On 5/2/2024 at 8:29 PM, Tango3B said:

I am aware of this and I mostly agree. I am also fully aware what the manual states about the FCS. But here is the thing…Skywalker asked if it can be done and I told him how to do it. You can do really wild stuff with the Jeff that way…

Should the FCS be used that way? Probably not because you basically override the built in safety features. But as a pilot I absolutely do not care. If I can manage to fly the jet in this very configuration to get an edge over my opponent I will absolutely do it. While it might take some getting used to flying the Jeff to its absolute limits it is fully worth it. Do I want to defend against a missile at high speed at only 6G available or will I take the 9G option? You might damn well know my answer. Remember your goal is to always max-perform your jet to get her home and not to recite the manual. Fighting is for men, not for intellectuals…

In a doghfight at slower speeds using only DIR LINK (EFCS has to be in AUTO, then!) gives you a tremendous amount of AOA if I need it and I do overshoot the normal limits. Try it against a Hornet or a M2K in a 1 circle when you are really slow. See what happens and what this jet can do. Again, I absolutely do not care what is written in the manual - which by the way also actively discourages the use of the gun in A/A. Ridiculous, try harder. Let me put it this way…use these functions only if you understand BFM. You should never end up slow in an unfavorable position…I think we can both agree on that. Thank you.

I cannot differ more with both of you, but I guess it is what it is *shrugs*

Have fun, and don't treat the rest of the people as cheaters to justify doing wrong things

[Tango3B]

46 minutes ago, paco2002 said:

 

I cannot differ more with both of you, but I guess it is what it is *shrugs*

Have fun, and don't treat the rest of the people as cheaters to justify doing wrong things

We know but that's okay, buddy. We know that. But hey, no hard feelings. You do you. However, I hope that "cheating" doesn't mean what you think we do. Well, we fly the JF-17 to the limit, a legal limit! Why?! Because we can and because the FCS allows it! But don't worry...you'll get behind it exactly why we do this. And then we talk again...just try the things we were talking about above. Just try these things. I'll point to getting scores of 17/0 on GS server, meanwhile...just do it. Enjoy your weekend, Paco. Viper´s out. Thank you.

[Xl-45]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:45 PM, Tango3B said:

Well, you sure can. So, for example when defending against a missile and you do a split S while being quite fast you can easily go beyond 9G. Just switch the EFCS on and make sure you also are in DIR LINK. As long as you are fast this gives you more available G. When you are starting to get slower switch EFCS back off. 
Also, for normal maneuvering, I always fly with DIR LINK on. That way I have no problem reaching 8G+ between 360-390 kts. I believe this mode takes the weird AOA restriction off of your jet so I actually feel very comfortable dogfighting this way. Just make sure you switch DIR LINK off again before landing…

So yeah, the Jeff is certainly not as limited as some people think. Just use these modes…play around with them and you see what I mean. DIR LINK works wonders when fighting a Hornet, for example… ;-D

Hi, thanks for this tip, but as a beginner on the JF i still struggle a bit to understand :
- If you need to pull more gs at higher speed, put EFCS switch to AUTO and DIR LINK to ON
- If you need to pull more AOA at very low speed put EFCS switch to EFCS and DIR LINK to ON
Is that correct ?
It seems like i am not able to get to  9g (8g max) while following the above steps (no difference between EFCS AUTO & DIR LINK ON and EFCS AUTO & DIR LINK OFF), direct link switch on seems only to work when near a spin at low speed, allowing me to get more than 26 AOA but no more than 30, EFCS switch to EFCS gets me more than 30 AOA only if very slow, otherwise i get lower AOA than with EFCS AUTO (all that with DIR LINK ON)
Am i doing something wrong ?

[paco2002]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:02 PM, Xl-45 said:

Hi, thanks for this tip, but as a beginner on the JF i still struggle a bit to understand :
- If you need to pull more gs at higher speed, put EFCS switch to AUTO and DIR LINK to ON
- If you need to pull more AOA at very low speed put EFCS switch to EFCS and DIR LINK to ON
Is that correct ?
It seems like i am not able to get to  9g (8g max) while following the above steps (no difference between EFCS AUTO & DIR LINK ON and EFCS AUTO & DIR LINK OFF), direct link switch on seems only to work when near a spin at low speed, allowing me to get more than 26 AOA but no more than 30, EFCS switch to EFCS gets me more than 30 AOA only if very slow, otherwise i get lower AOA than with EFCS AUTO (all that with DIR LINK ON)
Am i doing something wrong ?

Just to clarify, DIR LINK, even if it's on, it will only really turn on if you reach the maximum AoA (+-26). On that moment the plane will turn off AOA limit and give you all freedom.

 

Now on the EFCS, if you turn to EFCS (instead of AUTO) it will change the way the plane handles the limit, in AUTO, there will be a 8G limit while under 350kts, but if it's in EFCS the limit will change from Gs and AoA to a limit in degrees per second, more precisly, it will be limited to 6.5º per second. So if you want to get more G's, set EFCS switch to EFCS and go fast, Pulling 6.5º at 200kts will not give you as many G's as going at 700kts.

 

Anyway, if you're a beginner, and you want to fly it normally, leave it in auto, if you want to "minmax" everything, or play with airframe limits, then DIR LINK ON (It will only trigger when reaching 26º AoA) and if under 250, EFCS to AUTO, and if over 250 EFCS to EFCS.

 

Hope this clarify a bit the usage of both switches, in case you have any doubt about this or anything more, please do it, I love speaking about this

[Xl-45]

On 5/6/2024 at 9:49 AM, paco2002 said:

Just to clarify, DIR LINK, even if it's on, it will only really turn on if you reach the maximum AoA (+-26). On that moment the plane will turn off AOA limit and give you all freedom.

 

Now on the EFCS, if you turn to EFCS (instead of AUTO) it will change the way the plane handles the limit, in AUTO, there will be a 8G limit while under 350kts, but if it's in EFCS the limit will change from Gs and AoA to a limit in degrees per second, more precisly, it will be limited to 6.5º per second. So if you want to get more G's, set EFCS switch to EFCS and go fast, Pulling 6.5º at 200kts will not give you as many G's as going at 700kts.

 

Anyway, if you're a beginner, and you want to fly it normally, leave it in auto, if you want to "minmax" everything, or play with airframe limits, then DIR LINK ON (It will only trigger when reaching 26º AoA) and if under 250, EFCS to AUTO, and if over 250 EFCS to EFCS.

 

Hope this clarify a bit the usage of both switches, in case you have any doubt about this or anything more, please do it, I love speaking about this

Oh ok it's clear, thank you very much ! I understand now why the aircraft lets me pull insane AOA at very low speed with EFCS switched to EFCS !