On-Speed AoA sinks like a rock

[Nealius]

Trying the Su-33 for the first time and finding it much harder than the Hornet or Tomcat because of the invisible IFLOLS and throttle response worse than a 707. But the biggest trouble is that on-speed AoA is making me sink like a rock, and the slightest power I put back on makes me balloon. Trapping with an empty jet, 2~3k kg of fuel. On-speed is typically around 230kph or so. Don't understand why I fall so hard?

[BlackPixxel]

Is this topic about carrier landings?

 

If yes - try autothrust! It is incredible easy with autothrust + ILS to land on the carrier.

[Nealius]

Yes, carrier landings. Despite being a simpler module I find it much harder to trap than the Hornet or Tomcat.

[BlackPixxel]

It still has a PFM (professional flight model). So flight model wise it is on the same level as full fidelity planes.

 

But with autothrust and keeping the big circle directly in the center of the crosshair the Su-33 can be landed very well.

[Ironhand]

Yes, carrier landings. Despite being a simpler module I find it much harder to trap than the Hornet or Tomcat.

:) What makes you think that the FC3 Sukhois are as easy to fly (in terms of flight characteristics) as the Hornet or Tomcat?

 

But...more to the point, if the indexer is green and you are sinking too fast, you simply need more throttle. Small increments and wait for the change before you add or subtract more.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Ironhand

[DarkFire]

...Small increments and wait for the change before you add or subtract more.

 

Very much this. The Su-33 is the size of a very large business jet. It's a huge and heavy lump of a thing so particularly at low speeds and relatively high AOA, while throttle response is good acceleration can be sluggish so small throttle movements and any changes will come much slower than in the F/A-18. Use of the auto throttle is strongly recommended until you're quite experienced in carrier landings.

[Nealius]

Autothrottles aren't working for me. Default keybinding is J. I hit J when settled on-speed AoA but I still have to use throttles manually to keep it there.

[bbrz]

Furthermore you should learn to fly/land the Sukhoi by managing thrust manually.

 

Relying on automation due to the inability to manually control your airplane is a definite no-go IMO.

[Nealius]

I've never used autothrottles in the Hornet or Tomcat so I'm inclined to do it manually in the -33 as well. I'm getting better but holy hell the engine spool time + acceleration/deceleration lag is very hard to get used to.

[bbrz]

I'm getting better but holy hell the engine spool time + acceleration/deceleration lag is very hard to get used to.

Anticipation and knowing the approximately required RPM and corresponding throttle position is the key.

 

These problems make it obvious why flying becomes unnecessary difficult when you are flying different aircraft at the same time.

[Ironhand]

I've never used autothrottles in the Hornet or Tomcat so I'm inclined to do it manually in the -33 as well. I'm getting better but holy hell the engine spool time + acceleration/deceleration lag is very hard to get used to.

In landing configuration, the tach should be in the 8000s as you’re coming in. Never above and never below. Depending on your landing weight you should spend most of your time in the low- to mid-8000s, if memory serves. Perhaps paying attention to that will help as well.

[Kappi]

In landing configuration, the tach should be in the 8000s as you’re coming in. Never above and never below. Depending on your landing weight you should spend most of your time in the low- to mid-8000s, if memory serves. Perhaps paying attention to that will help as well.

 

8000? I always thought the tach is calibrated in percent of maximum engine power. You mean 80%?

[Ironhand]

8000? I always thought the tach is calibrated in percent of maximum engine power. You mean 80%?

 

Yes, %. My brain’s not up to thinking this evening. Don’t know why I wrote it as the number x1000. I normally think of it as 83, 85, 90, etc.

[Kappi]

Yes, %. My brain’s not up to thinking this evening. Don’t know why I wrote it as the number x1000. I normally think of it as 83, 85, 90, etc.

 

Might have been the alcohol ;-) Happy new year!

[Nealius]

These problems make it obvious why flying becomes unnecessary difficult when you are flying different aircraft at the same time.

 

That's probably why I've been having so much trouble :joystick:

 

What's the max trap weight for the Flanker D? The manual only mentions a "landing weight."

Edited January 1, 2020 by Nealius

[DarkFire]

That's probably why I've been having so much trouble :joystick:

 

What's the max trap weight for the Flanker D? The manual only mentions a "landing weight."

 

Page 48 of the Su-33 flight manual:

 

Maximum landing weight: 24,500 Kg.

Landing weight limit: 26,000 Kg.

 

These maximum weights relate to both airfield and carrier landings.

 

What the second figure means is not described, though I take it to mean the maximum structurally safe landing weight, minus whatever safety margin the engineers at Sukhoi designed in to the airframe. Taking the G stress limit as a guide would indicate that there's actually around a (IIRC) 25-30% safety margin built in to the design, but that's pure conjecture on my part.

 

In any case the normal maximum weight involves no weapons and barely any fuel other than an emergency reserve. Page 7 of the manual specifically describes a fuel dump system being introduced on the Su-33 (Su-27K) so that a pilot can spend a few minutes dumping excess fuel to get below the max landing weight before trapping.

 

Edited to add: I usually come over the arse end of the ship at around 83-87% throttle, depending on weather, weight etc. In what is probably not in any way a coincidence, 85-87% RPM used to be (before ambient temperature effects on engine performance were modelled) cruise RPM setting for both the Su-27S and Su-33, which was corroborated years ago by a source that I by now can't remember (so take with a pinch of salt) stating that 85-87% RPM was the normal cruise setting used by actual VVS & PVO (as then were) Su-27S pilots.

Edited January 1, 2020 by DarkFire

[Nealius]

So "landing weight" in the manual is both max shore landing weight and max trap weight? Coming from NATO jets that specifically separate the two, the wording in the manual was quite vague.

[DarkFire]

So "landing weight" in the manual is both max shore landing weight and max trap weight? Coming from NATO jets that specifically separate the two, the wording in the manual was quite vague.

 

I think that's the case. Adding the extra dead weight from the Su-33 to the maximum landing weight of the basic Su-27 would result in a runway maximum landing weight of 25,020 Kg for the Su-33, so without the manual being explicit as to what it refers to it's logical that the lower manual-based figure of 24,500 Kg refers to carrier trap weight. Anything lower wouldn't allow for an emergency fuel reserve in case of a bolter or wire break.

 

To be fair the higher figure could be the max runway weight. Unfortunately the manual is rather vague.

 

Edited to add: even then these figures are supposed to be the maximum permitted landing weight, not a standard weight. I don't know if this applies to the Su-33 but the 23,500Kg landing weight limit that applies to the real Su-27 comes with a caveat that reads something like "this landing weight is permitted as long as no more than 5% of landings are at this weight" or something similar. No idea what the Russian navy KiAP procedures are for trapping birds that still have ordnance left, but it appears that they're happy to dump nearly all remaining fuel to achieve minimum possible landing weight.

Edited January 1, 2020 by DarkFire

[Count von Altibar]

What touchdown speed are you guys aiming for? I know this will vary with weight personally I hit the deck around 250 km/h, maybe too quick???

[bbrz]

What touchdown speed are you guys aiming for? I know this will vary with weight personally I hit the deck around 250 km/h, maybe too quick???

That's a strange question. You correctly mentioned that the approach and touchdown speed varies with weight.

Without knowing what your Su-33 weighs in your case, how should anyone know if 250 km/h is too fast?

[Ironhand]

What touchdown speed are you guys aiming for? I know this will vary with weight personally I hit the deck around 250 km/h, maybe too quick???

:) That's as good place as any to start, I suppose. But the AoA Indexer will let you know what your speed needs to be.