MADDOG!

[cool_t]

Kuky I've already been shown how to beat an AMRAAM, on the RWR wait for the last light then pull a hard g turn and guess what 90% of the time it works.

 

 

90%? Hu, I dont know about 90% more like 40%

 

:thumbup:

[Pilotasso]

While the human player does not suffer G forces and flies more aggressively than a real pilot lets not forget that not all virtual pilots are the same. On the other hand lets also not forget how much chaff has realy saved everyones butts from AMRAAM's indpendently of skill in annalogous ways to vietnam era missiles. When someone wonders why the rest of us think its unrealistic, lets keep in mind that there is a definate difference between the absurd and classified perfomance results. Released numbers are definatly NOT met.

 

Another thing to put into consideration is that some people that fly f-15 also fly with other weapons and planes, and I dont hear much complaints from using R-27 or even Sparrow missiles.

[Kuky]

Another thing to put into consideration is that some people that fly f-15 also fly with other weapons and planes, and I dont hear much complaints from using R-27 or even Sparrow missiles.

 

I think that's because unlike SAR missiles pilots firing AR missiles think/hope the missile will do all the work itself. If you fire R-27 or AIM-7 you need to keep that lock... and at the same time if you're being fired on that complicates things 10x as you can't just turn tail and hope your missile will hit the target.

[borchi_2b]

just one thing to all.

i have the feeling, that many of you guys think, that you only have dump asses you fly against.

did anybody of you ever think of the facts why a missile does not hit the target?

it is not only about the missile envelope and the performance.

the biggest factor of a fight is allways the pilot, that implies you and the guys at the other side.

 

i could upload 2 tackview for you guys to show you how things can go wrong and how they can go right if you want, and the guys who flew are not beginners at all, they are guys of my virtual squad and fly for many many hours and years now

in the tackviews you can really good see missiles performances what normaly a real amraam would never do unless it is guided by the planes radar.

 

but

my actual point is, that good pilots make good decisions and know what they do and talk about in a fight and also in normal flight.

i bet , that when you guys start spaming (maddoging) the missiles in a 1vs1 against me, that in the end you will have no missiles left to engage me but i promise, that i have at least 4 to 3 left plus the 2 aim9, which makes me in the end the more leathel fighter.

ahh, the fight would be without refueling and without rearming, before somebody very intelligent writes, "ok, then i will land and come back up with full arm".

the point is, to analyse the situation, make a choice, and in the case that i see the bandit move out at a certain distance, i can predict, that a active missile is allready on the way, and cause of TWS you will not know right away if i shot or not, so you cannot predict how many missiles i have left, so therefor i have two possibilities to go out of the BVR everytime, shot one support and turn, or just turn and pull your missiles out of thier effective envelope and kepp my own on my rails and wait for a good point where i can fire my own missiles but normally i only fire 1 or 2 missiles cause when the first is fired at max range and has not hit when the distance to the bandit is about half i can assume that it has not hit and it is time for the 2nd missile which is closer to the bandit and has more energie to move

 

so point is, to decide how you go into the first BVR, cause that is vital for your futher fighting. you go in agressive, you have to saty in a certain way in the fight no matter what comes. you go into the fight defensive, you first attempt is to pull so many missiles out as it is possible, cause that weakens the bandit alot and will change the balance of the fight.

you will end up as the more leathel, how i allready described cause you have in the end more missiles.

but it is allways, and can only repeat that 1000 times, to make decisions and to predict the fight in every little moment, like in chest, and keep the balance of the fight at some point that is favoured from you.

when the balance for example in a 2 vs 1 is favoured in the beginning for the 2 bandits, then you have to weaken them right away, to bring the balance to your advantage like pulling thier missiles out, cause they will have the advantage to make you move devensive just by having more missiles they can use

thats what you have to compensate

 

ok, i could keep on going for hour like this and tell you things what they tell you in fighterschool, but that is something i do not need i guess, cause here are so many professionals ;-)

 

greetz

borchi_2b

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Veljko, what is the actual range of the R-77? Let's say at about 3000m altitude?

The export version of R-77 is listed at 80km.. Launch altitude is not listed.

 

Raytheon does not list the AIM-120 range? Interesting …

[Guest Crazy_Eyes]

I will leave my political and moral views out of this forum.

 

I always carry 2x Sparrows they are a better CQC weapon, which is not realistic I know, but at -2nm the Sparrow has a much better PK than the AIM-9 in LO.

 

The AMRAAM is porked, It's very slow compared to 1.02, in 1.02 the AMRAAM travelled at mach 4 now it only travels at mach 3.2 if I'm correct. The legs have been cut off the AMRAAM and the seeker is sooooo suseptible to chaff, If you turn labels on and fly at full speed and fire a maddog AMRAAM straight ahead it only reaches 3.6 nm before you start to catch up with it, it's very slow.

 

Cool T, when I tried the RWR trick I flooded AMRAAM with chaff and pulled a hard G turn on the last light, I think I tried this several times and only one hit!, I tried this against AI.

[borchi_2b]

@haj: who tells you that the listed facts are the real once, i guess that the r-77 is capable of more than 80km, but thats not the question. we as non real fighter pilots , other then the guys who know people of thier trust :-), will never get the information about the real effective range of the missiles that are used in modern combat airplanes today.

i can only say that it allways depends on the azimuth and so on, bla bla, like we did talk about the last couple pages, but in good circumstances the amraam can be fired at about 100miles, at least the newest version. when you want to know how far they can go, ask raytheon in a mail or go the flightshows and talk to them, maybe they tell you something, but they will not give you the exact datas, cause the industrie sell products and what they tell you is thier wish how the missile or plane should perform, but reality has proven that most of the times things perform worse then the industrie tell us.

little example, the f-15c is supposed to fly mach 2.5, thats what the industrie tells us, but in real life, it would only achiev that from a hgh altitude dive with full burners and max out the structural performance.

i a straight lefevl max power flight in high alt. the eagle has a real max of mach 2.3 not more or less cause the drag that causes the plane to hold at a certain speed is way to big for the thrust the engines can provide max. that is the rule for all milplanes in general, that they performe just a little worse then the industrie tells us

 

@crasy eyes:

well even when the amraam is porked, you have to deal with it and that makes the diffrence to me between a good or a bad pilot, is the person able to addapt the facts or not? is he able to work with the stuff he gets?

i real life some pilots which they could allready shot a bandit down at 200miles, but that does not work so they have to deal with it.

even when the amraam ould be better in the game, not much would change for good pilots, cause all only happens just a little bit earlier, or they know that they cannot go into the bandit that deep anymore, but thats all, believe me.

and when a pilot is not able to kill with a weakend missile, he will not have so much advantage out of a slight better one. when you are able to handle a bad thing, you are even better to handle a good thing

[Guest Crazy_Eyes]

@crasy eyes:

well even when the amraam is porked, you have to deal with it and that makes the diffrence to me between a good or a bad pilot, is the person able to addapt the facts or not? is he able to work with the stuff he gets?

i real life some pilots which they could allready shot a bandit down at 200miles, but that does not work so they have to deal with it.

even when the amraam ould be better in the game, not much would change for good pilots, cause all only happens just a little bit earlier, or they know that they cannot go into the bandit that deep anymore, but thats all, believe me.

and when a pilot is not able to kill with a weakend missile, he will not have so much advantage out of a slight better one. when you are able to handle a bad thing, you are even better to handle a good thing

 

Hi Bochi,

 

I've learnt to deal with the AMRAAM it preforms ok'ish at -8nm, The Sparrow when used correctly is a much better weapon, All I've wanted to state is that the AMRAAM in LO is porked and no one will change my opinion on that.

[Frostie]

The fact is all missiles in game aren't carbon copies of there RL counterparts.

When im chasing a bandit within 5km in a Flanker and every ER missile I launch at him fails to impact then that tells me something is not right.

 

The problem is most people fly HL style, launch their rams run home load up some more and go and spam some more , no skill , just stat padding , testimony to the many people that do this they only ever shoot down the inexperienced.

 

In a co-ordinated event like LOCERF packed with many exp. pilots , surviving takes priority over scoring points the most consistent pilots fly F-15's and it wasn't until RF3 before the first ER kill was accomplished this in my opinion resembles RL as much as is possible for a game.

 

So changing the AMRAAM into something all empowering is wrong it is still alongside the 77 the best radar missile in the game, granted it misses but so does every other missile.

People who want things with the AMRAAM changed don't mention the things it does NOW which make it better than what it should be in other aspects.

 

All this is ofcourse ignoring the obvious ET factor.

[borchi_2b]

that is allright is think ;-)

i myself know that it is porked and we had several discussions in our virtual squad about it, and people asked me to talk to my cousin.

hehe, i did, but i was not allowed to pass the informations on to third party.

so it does not help te community, but well, what you say about the sparrow is true in some point. the bandit, esspecialy the russian fighters cannot predict, when they have to pull a f-pole, and in high alt. it has more range then the amraam.

but for many pilots it is hard to use the missiles, cause they have to fight in a diffrent way, it is not just fire and turn, lol

the only thing i figured is, that when you use the sparrow or 27er against ki, it is way harder to hit them, they seem to know where the missile is, and do the exact right all the times

 

@frost1e: nice post. finaly here spoke sombody who is a person who really understood BVR

thanks, that keeps my hopes up

:-)

and we are both at the same point, the amraam is powerfull enough in this game, it is all about the pilots, what it will allways be, even when in the future the comps will fly the fighter, still somebody is watching them or stearing them from some far of bunker and has to perform

 

my opinion is, that people who complain about the amraam, are people who never really flew against experianced pilots cause they do not whine about the missiles, they accept the facts given and work with them

[Guest Crazy_Eyes]

The fact is all missiles in game aren't carbon copies of there RL counterparts.

When im chasing a bandit within 5km in a Flanker and every ER missile I launch at him fails to impact then that tells me something is not right.

 

The problem is most people fly HL style, launch their rams run home load up some more and go and spam some more , no skill , just stat padding , testimony to the many people that do this they only ever shoot down the inexperienced.

 

In a co-ordinated event like LOCERF packed with many exp. pilots , surviving takes priority over scoring points the most consistent pilots fly F-15's and it wasn't until RF3 before the first ER kill was accomplished this in my opinion resembles RL as much as is possible for a game.

 

So changing the AMRAAM into something all empowering is wrong it is still alongside the 77 the best radar missile in the game, granted it misses but so does every other missile.

People who want things with the AMRAAM changed don't mention the things it does NOW which make it better than what it should be in other aspects.

 

All this is ofcourse ignoring the obvious ET factor.

 

Hi Frostie,

 

I've learnt the hard way on HL is not to get no nearer than 8nm of any Russian fighter because of the godlike ET, Yes I fire an AMRAAM at 7-8 nm whilst beaming and guiding the AMRAAM untill it goes active then I do turn and burn but I think this a realistic tactic or am I wrong?, either way I find this tactic very reliable.

[borchi_2b]

@ crasy eyes:

you can get closer, you only have to understand the ET and also the way how to fight in a su or mig, then you will get closer, and believe me, i also outturned the ET many times, and i do fly mainly the eagle in lockon, even in my suad, but i do have leader who flies only russians, so i had to learn to addapt to the su27 very quickly. now since i understand the way how to fight with the su or the mig fully, i know that i do have to think about flares when i am at a certain range to a russian fighter. the et only hits me when i forget about the flares cause the fight is to hot, but at other times, we my lead and i tested alot with the et and the su, passed on that knowledge to our squad, and we do not kill with the et at 25 to 30 km anymore, you know why?

cause they learned to handle the problem

8-7 miles can be to close when you fight against an experianced pilot.

when to good pilots fight against each other, the know that they would never get close to visual range or dogfight

[GGTharos]

Would you stop already? MAch 2.5 is achieved in LEVEL FLIGHT after some 240 sec of acceleration in full burner at 35-40k.

 

little example, the f-15c is supposed to fly mach 2.5, thats what the industrie tells us, but in real life, it would only achiev that from a hgh altitude dive with full burners and max out the structural performance.

i a straight lefevl max power flight in high alt. the eagle has a real max of mach 2.3 not more or less cause the drag that causes the plane to hold at a certain speed is way to big for the thrust the engines can provide max. that is the rule for all milplanes in general, that they performe just a little worse then the industrie tells us

 

 

even when the amraam ould be better in the game, not much would change for good pilots, cause all only happens just a little bit earlier, or they know that they cannot go into the bandit that deep anymore, but thats all, believe me.

 

 

Wrong. I'll let you figure out why.

[borchi_2b]

@GGtharos:

 

have you ever flown an Eagle?

for sure not, otherwise you would not write such stupied thing.

first, mach 2.5 do you know how much airpressure exist up there?

my cousin was at 41000 feet over the atlantic.

his jet the 86-0159 is known in europe to have the best engines overseas which are available for the f-15c, and he only managed mach 2.3, point.

it is not possible to go faster then that without sevearly damaging the frame cause of heat and drag

 

there is no point to it to convince me from something other cause i do know

[504Goon]

Launch altitude is not listed.

 

Raytheon does not list the AIM-120 range? Interesting …

 

Nor it does include aspect, launching aircraft speed nor closure. All those things that are in that DLZ that was mentioned few pages ago. Interesting in deed. :)

[GGTharos]

@GGtharos:

 

have you ever flown an Eagle?

 

Have you? Moreover, have you looked at the -1 data, which is UNCLASSIFIED and collected by FLYING an F-15?

 

for sure not, otherwise you would not write such stupied thing.

:music_whistling: ... So you're saying that the F-15C was never tested to mach 2.5 in level flight? I mean, how would YOU know it can reach that speed in a dive since the poor thing would melt down before it got there, according to you? ;)

Or did you have to throw that one out just to conceal your lack of knowledge with a logical fallacy?

 

 

first, mach 2.5 do you know how much airpressure exist up there?

my cousin was at 41000 feet over the atlantic.

I'm fairly familiar with the numbers, yes.

 

his jet the 86-0159 is known in europe to have the best engines overseas which are available for the f-15c, and he only managed mach 2.3, point.

it is not possible to go faster then that without sevearly damaging the frame cause of heat and drag

Thermal limit is 2.4, but hey, it's not like going to 2.5 will make it explode instantaneously :D And yeah, I'm aware your 'cousin' would have to heed thermal limits.

 

there is no point to it to convince me from something other cause i do know

You're clueless.

[504Goon]

have you ever flown an Eagle?

 

And have you ever studied the performance graphs of the Eagle? The flight envelopes and acceleration information isn't just guesswork, it's real, tested data of the real aircraft. And no, they don't fit special engines to reach those results.

[borchi_2b]

ohh the prof are talking, lol

 

it is not recommended to fly that speed and no pilot would do, cause it does damage to the plane.

data is something that has to be seen at 2 sides, but you probably know that, and hey GGtharon, change your additute and tone, you are getting more and more respectless.

do you want to have the tel number of my cousin and talk to him yourself or are you just jealous?

 

what does the max performance has to do with maddoging, thats what i do question right now

but guys just stick to the data instead of facts given by somebody who has a first hand source

 

it is way to childish to argue with you guys about what the eagle is able to perform or not.

 

if you are that smart then tell me how many eagles are flying right now?

now i am intersted how good your are informed and how good yozr sources are, lol

[GGTharos]

... Wait ... so now you're saying it CAN reach mach 2.5 without having to dive? See, none of this has to do with maddogging. It has to do with your credibility.

 

By the way, maybe you didn't read what I wrote. The -1 is the same manual the pilots study the F-15's performance from. It isn't classified, and you can get one too! ;) This data comes from actually flying an F-15 and collecting numbers based on said flight.

So why don't you go find your data and 'see it from both sides' ... by the way - what sources did I mention other than the -1? ;)

[S77th-GOYA]

[D-Scythe]

... Wait ... so now you're saying it CAN reach mach 2.5 without having to dive? See, none of this has to do with maddogging. It has to do with your credibility.

 

By the way, maybe you didn't read what I wrote. The -1 is the same manual the pilots study the F-15's performance from. It isn't classified, and you can get one too! ;) This data comes from actually flying an F-15 and collecting numbers based on said flight.

So why don't you go find your data and 'see it from both sides' ... by the way - what sources did I mention other than the -1? ;)

 

GG, I can't even give you more rep. Your patience has been outstanding, trying to inform the misinformed - especially when said misinformed member is so adamant that he's right.

[GGTharos]

No biggie, I think I got my fangs hanging a bit .. thanks for the scan GOYA.

[Pilotasso]

When im chasing a bandit within 5km in a Flanker and every ER missile I launch at him fails to impact then that tells me something is not right.

 

The problem is most people fly HL style, launch their rams run home load up some more and go and spam some more , no skill , just stat padding , testimony to the many people that do this they only ever shoot down the inexperienced.

 

 

hoho, bombastic claims here against F-15 drivers... Im not ignoring the rest of the message or the fact that there ARE a few people that Maddogs them BVR, but... what is that so different from the ET factor you mentioned? The only differences I find are that R-77 maddogs better and the ET gives no warning at all. When the AMRAAM is used properly it will miss more often. As far as I recall when 504 server was online the most successfull missiles were the russian missiles of the Fire and forget type.

 

Some of the best Virtual pilots I see out there fly F-15 and they score Sparrow kills with the same skill as they score with AMRAAM, dont be fooled into believeing that if they jump into an Su-27 they shall become any easier prey.

 

 

 

In a co-ordinated event like LOCERF packed with many exp. pilots , surviving takes priority over scoring points the most consistent pilots fly F-15's and it wasn't until RF3 before the first ER kill was accomplished this in my opinion resembles RL as much as is possible for a game.

 

So changing the AMRAAM into something all empowering is wrong it is still alongside the 77 the best radar missile in the game, granted it misses but so does every other missile.

People who want things with the AMRAAM changed don't mention the things it does NOW which make it better than what it should be in other aspects.

 

This part of the message is a typical of someone who doesnt fly various aircraft. What you said about RF is inherent to the problems given by SARH concept. AMRAAM is a better weapon than the older R-27 missiles thats a fact. the game already gives you balancing benifits by giving you the chance to have R-77 on MIG wich never happened for RL Ukranian or Russian birds. Leaving the AMRAAM porked only hurts realism further and we shouldnt be forced to accept that in favour to a sides or a players favourite aircraft.

 

ED's dilemma when featured the aircraft that LOMAC features is that there is no real contest between F-15 and the other planes at BVR. Now if you claim F-15 is taking more kills than Su or Mig online right now we can keep arguing all night long because we wont reach a colective testimonial agreement. Since there wont be such agreement you will probably realize that F-15 frustrations caused on you by runnin AMRAAM shooters are not representative of their real threat.

[borchi_2b]

i guess the grafic that goya posted says enough, just have a carefull lock at it and understand whats written or shown there ;-)

 

then you maybe get a sence of what i said and somebody else told me from first hand.

 

ok, i guess we are thrugh with that part

 

and credebility is not just about simpathys in this form, it is about knowledge

[GGTharos]

Yes, I see it says that the F-15 can reach mach 2.5 in level flight, where you said it required an afterburning dive. ;)

The thermal limit was not in question, it was just a smoke screen you tried to throw up.

 

i guess the grafic that goya posted says enough, just have a carefull lock at it and understand whats written or shown there ;-)

 

then you maybe get a sence of what i said and somebody else told me from first hand.

 

ok, i guess we are thrugh with that part

 

and credebility is not just about simpathys in this form, it is about knowledge