Ka-50 RWR

[Geier]

You bet I'm a fighter! :pilotfly:But not a fighting whiner. :megalol:

And what does "just" supposed to mean? lol

 

Being serious: I'm just some realism fan...

 

Of course. I'm a fighter too))) I had no intention to offend you)))) It's er... just a wrong word:)

[Malleus]

Does the Ka-50 have chaffs?

[Jascha]

Does the Ka-50 have chaffs?

 

Yes it does. The countermeasures dispensers are located on the wing tips.

 

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?end_pos=950&scr=default&lang=en

 

;)

[SimFreak]

Does the Ka-50 have chaffs?

 

Countermeasures Equipment

The countermeasures dispensers are located on the wing tips.

 

For the programming of countermeasure dispensers, the UV-26 control panel is used. Depending on the type of threat, the pilot can set the appropriate dispenser program for expending chaff and/or flares. The pilot can determine the number of flares to dispense in the volley, the time between each flare, and the time between volleys. Using the control panel it is possible to select with dispenser to use (left or right) and when to start or stop the dispensing program.

 

I think it maybe a typo since Ka-50 only has flares. (including 4 signal flares)

[britgliderpilot]

Yes it does. The countermeasures dispensers are located on the wing tips.

 

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?end_pos=950&scr=default&lang=en

 

;)

 

Mmmn. There's a problem with that - the Ka50 in Black Shark absolutely does not have chaff dispensers . . . . it has flares, and that's it.

 

 

No RWR in the Ka-50 is a big mistake, since a basic model is very simple technology, even if it was just a rudimentary warning system telling you if you're being painted or not it would do wonders for the morale of the pilots I'd say... you never know for sure that the enemy doesn't posses a radar based AA system. And this lack of a basic warning system makes the helo virtually useless in a hot combat environment. Even the Shilka use radar, and unless you see him before he fires you'll just have to hope he's a poor shot. Meeting a tunguska or any similar system would certainly end in disaster. For you.

 

A big mistake maybe, but it's the decision the Russians have taken with the real aircraft. There just isn't a RWR present in the Ka50.

 

If you get shot down by a radar-guided AAA gun in Black Shark, you're doing something very wrong - even without the RWR. MANPADS are a far greater threat.

[Jascha]

Mmmn. There's a problem with that - the Ka50 in Black Shark absolutely does not have chaff dispensers . . . . it has flares, and that's it.

 

What?

That is some news. On the official website it says BS will have chaff. Also real-life UV-26 countermeasures wing tip pod contains chaff as well - afaik. Since it's a chaff/flare dispenser...

 

Maybe... you've overlooked it in the keyboard layout. ;)

[159th_Viper]

 

Maybe... you've overlooked it in the keyboard layout. ;)

 

I don't think so ;)

 

In any event, without a RWR and with any ARH/SARH Missile and/or Medium/Long Range Radar SAM being fired BVR, a Chaff dispenser is pretty worthless IMHO.

[britgliderpilot]

What?

That is some news. On the official website it says BS will have chaff. Also real-life UV-26 countermeasures wing tip pod contains chaff as well - afaik. Since it's a chaff/flare dispenser...

 

Maybe... you've overlooked it in the keyboard layout. ;)

 

Well the official website doesn't tie up with the aircraft modelled - I can't offer any explanation for that.

 

The UV-26 can theoretically be fitted with chaff cartridges instead of flares - but in the case of the Ka50 modelled in Black Shark, all the cartridges are flares.

 

Trust me, I haven't overlooked a chaff dispenser command somewhere ;)

[Jascha]

In any event, without a RWR and with any ARH/SARH Missile and/or Medium/Long Range Radar SAM being fired BVR, a Chaff dispenser is pretty worthless IMHO.

 

I disagree on that. You can still spot a missile visually (theoretically). Since you have no idea if it's IR or radar guided it would be smart to use both flares and chaff. Not to mention situation when you know that you are in range of radar SAM site and you know that if something is flying towards you fast, you should drop chaff. ;)

 

Geez. No RWR, no chaff... Flying Ka-50 seems to be like sitting ducks for me now. What's next - a big bullseye painted on the board with inscription "aim here"? :megalol:

 

Anyway thanks for the update. It looks like it will be a truly thrilling experience to fly BS.

 

PS. If some moderator could change the topic for "Ka-50 countermeasures" or something like that, it would be great. :)

[GGTharos]

It wouldn't matter a whole lot if you had chaff ... the rotor ensure that your heli is very, very distinct from the chaff ;)

 

And, you would likely never see an AAM coming when launched BVR. It's just -not- something you're looking for ... but you don't have to believe me, you'll find out for yourself :D

 

And yes, you're right ... Helis have a big bullseye painted on them ... at least for fighters. This is why helis like to skulk around and hide. They are basically a very fast weapons delivery truck, and that's it - they're very vulnerable.

[Sundowner.pl]

Well chaff may help a little. First, a lot depends on amount of that tinfoil ejected into space, one cartridge will not cut it... 10 might ;)

 

Second thing, a chaff may not only be used to trick missile to change course away from you. Almost all a2a and g2a missiles have proximity fuses, working by small radar, or laser range finders. When such missile fly through a cloud of metalic foil - its reflection may trigger the fuse.

 

Anyway if you don't have something like AN/AAR-57, flying low and fast is your only option for survival.

[GGTharos]

Well chaff may help a little. First, a lot depends on amount of that tinfoil ejected into space, one cartridge will not cut it... 10 might ;)

 

And how much bigger RCS then the RCS of the earth does all this tinfoil have? ;) You're already causing the most severe look-down problem you can just by flying low!

 

 

Second thing, a chaff may not only be used to trick missile to change course away from you. Almost all a2a and g2a missiles have proximity fuses, working by small radar, or laser range finders. When such missile fly through a cloud of metalic foil - its reflection may trigger the fuse.

Yes, but on the other hand, those same fuzes might be smart enough to trigger only against the proper doppler shifted RCS, thus completely ignoring chaff ... laser fuzes are probably not likely to bite on chaff either. IGLAs and Stingers have no prox fuzes. But then again, it's not like a heli really has the energy to get out of their way.

[Yellonet]

Getting in the Ka-50 sounds more and more like a suicide mission... you basically won't survive unless the enemy has no aircraft and no reasonable defence. We'll have to settle for busting tanks and trucks without any AA defence... yay :cry:

[159th_Viper]

Still do not foresee a problem myself :).

 

Adequate recon will tend to take care of all short-range Air Defences and for Medium Range stuff you'll have SEAD strikes in any event. Here's hoping for a T-Frog add-on: KA-50/SU-25T will be a lethal combo Indeed.

[Malleus]

So what's the role of the Ka-50 anyway?

 

It has flares against IR guided SAMs, indicating that the main threat for it are manpads, and other short range IR SAMs. It has LWR, which doesn't really matter much because few SAMs use laser guidance. Sounds like something for anti infatry combat, or something for assymetric warfare where the enemy doesn't have any high tech AA (guess it was like this in Chechnya).

 

On the other hand it is equipped with the most advanced anti armor missile system russia has to offer, plus it's machine gun is almost fixed. That would suggest that it's rather for anti armor/vehicle.

 

So ... it's something like: fixed wing AC perform SEAD strikes to clear the arera of any AA (assuming we already have air superiority), then they send it the Ka-50s to properly clean up whatever remains? Sorry for the noobish questions, it's just not quite clear to me what its role is...

[Sundowner.pl]

And how much bigger RCS then the RCS of the earth does all this tinfoil have? ;) You're already causing the most severe look-down problem you can just by flying low!

And how low, you have to fly in open terrain for this actually to work ? Not even talking about desert environment.

 

Yes, but on the other hand, those same fuzes might be smart enough to trigger only against the proper doppler shifted RCS, thus completely ignoring chaff ... laser fuzes are probably not likely to bite on chaff either.

Those fuses are as smart as those parking sensors mounted in car bumpers, there's obstacle, there's signal - nothing more, nothing less. Those are very simple systems, because, the simple things work.

 

Getting in the Ka-50 sounds more and more like a suicide mission... you basically won't survive unless the enemy has no aircraft and no reasonable defence. We'll have to settle for busting tanks and trucks without any AA defense... yay :cry:

Not really, the key to survival is information. If you know where SAMs and AAA are located, you know where not to fly. Everywhere else you fly at an altitude below radars LOS, and you will be fine. Just don't go into open terrain, there you have to hug the ground, and that's accident waiting to happen.

[britgliderpilot]

So what's the role of the Ka-50 anyway?

 

It has flares against IR guided SAMs, indicating that the main threat for it are manpads, and other short range IR SAMs. It has LWR, which doesn't really matter much because few SAMs use laser guidance. Sounds like something for anti infatry combat, or something for assymetric warfare where the enemy doesn't have any high tech AA (guess it was like this in Chechnya).

 

On the other hand it is equipped with the most advanced anti armor missile system russia has to offer, plus it's machine gun is almost fixed. That would suggest that it's rather for anti armor/vehicle.

 

So ... it's something like: fixed wing AC perform SEAD strikes to clear the arera of any AA (assuming we already have air superiority), then they send it the Ka-50s to properly clean up whatever remains? Sorry for the noobish questions, it's just not quite clear to me what its role is...

 

It's for bashing tanks and ground units, simple as that.

 

The biggest threat is MANPADS - they're very fast and guided. However, tanks and armoured fighting vehicles use laser rangefinders to help aim their main weapons . . . . and a 105mm or 30mm projectile can really spoil your day.

 

. . . and before we get into that, yes a tank shell CAN shoot down a helicopter at low crossing velocities. Like if you just popped up over a hill in front of it.

 

However, the longest range kill from a tank main gun is 4km (by a British Challenger in GW1). The Ka50 ranges out to 8-10km with the Vikhr . . . so you stay in stand-off range and clobber them with that.

The same applies for Shilkas, Vulcans, Tunguskas, Avengers . . . . if you can see them coming, you can outrange them.

 

Tracers are easy to spot and avoid if you have your eyes open, you can throw out an awful lot of flares if you see a MANPADS coming . . . then you can run away and relocate and your target can't.

 

The 30mm autocannon is very accurate and very useful against IFVs and APCs, with AP for armoured vehicles and HE for soft. The S-8 is a bit better on that front.

That leaves the S-13 for buildings, emplacements and so forth.

I wouldn't use the gunpods for anything other than soft targets.

 

 

Radar-guided missiles . . . well they're generally restricted to area SAMs and fighters.

 

If you get engaged by a Patriot or S-300 . . . . well you're doing something very, very wrong. You should be NOE for all kinds of reasons . . . they're just not going to see you.

 

And sure, if a fighter dedicated itself to scouring ground terrain for attack helicopters, it might be able to pick you out from ground clutter and destroy you.

But I rather suspect that a fighter would have other things on it's mind - strike packages and other fighters. How often does a CAP fly along examining the ground in minute detail?

[Squid_DK]

Good "article" Britgliderpilot, and very true.

all helicopters should stay in the weeds and try not to look conspicuous (hard with a huge eggbeater over the head though :D) still the Attack Helo is propably the greatest threat to massed armour formations (be it tanks or IFV's)

 

Cheers

Staffan

[GGTharos]

And how low, you have to fly in open terrain for this actually to work ? Not even talking about desert environment.

 

The target must be close tot he ground, and the emitter of the weapon must be close to the ground (to maximize own radar reflection from eath). In any case, chaff doesn't make a particularly huge difference here, and it's likely not very effective in this situation.

 

Those fuses are as smart as those parking sensors mounted in car bumpers, there's obstacle, there's signal - nothing more, nothing less. Those are very simple systems, because, the simple things work.

 

They might be 'simple' but they're just a little smarter than you think - they do in fact employ doppler discrimination for timings and other fun things.

 

Not really, the key to survival is information. If you know where SAMs and AAA are located, you know where not to fly. Everywhere else you fly at an altitude below radars LOS, and you will be fine. Just don't go into open terrain, there you have to hug the ground, and that's accident waiting to happen.

 

That's right. Information is ammunition ;)

[Force_Feedback]

Against the Tor and Tunguska you're royally f-ed, not to mention the Pantsir most 'evil' nations have bought.

[RedTiger]

Getting in the Ka-50 sounds more and more like a suicide mission... you basically won't survive unless the enemy has no aircraft and no reasonable defence. We'll have to settle for busting tanks and trucks without any AA defence... yay :cry:

 

This what you have combined arms and air superiority fighters for, no?

[MarcPhoenix]

This what you have combined arms and air superiority fighters for, no?

Not necessary

 

"CORPS ATTACK HELICOPTER REGIMENT MISSION:

1-29. The corps attack helicopter regiment’s TOE mission statement is to

plan, coordinate, and execute aviation and combined arms operations to

support the corps aviation brigade scheme of maneuver. This regiment

(Figure 1-2) destroys enemy forces using fire, maneuver, and shock effect. Its secondary missions are reconnaissance, security, defensive air combat, and support of division close combat operations."

 

Extract from publication US "Aviation Brigade" (FM 3-04.111 (FM 1-111))

AUGUST 2003

DISTRIBUTION RESTRICTION: Approved for public release; distribution unlimited.

HEADQUARTERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

 

Ps: I don't no for Russian Attack Helicopter Regiment :(

[RedTiger]

Not necessary

 

"CORPS ATTACK HELICOPTER REGIMENT MISSION:

1-29. The corps attack helicopter regiment’s TOE mission statement is to

plan, coordinate, and execute aviation and combined arms operations to

support the corps aviation brigade scheme of maneuver. This regiment

(Figure 1-2) destroys enemy forces using fire, maneuver, and shock effect. Its secondary missions are reconnaissance, security, defensive air combat, and support of division close combat operations."

 

Extract from publication US "Aviation Brigade" (FM 3-04.111 (FM 1-111))

AUGUST 2003

DISTRIBUTION RESTRICTION: Approved for public release; distribution unlimited.

HEADQUARTERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

 

Ps: I don't no for Russian Attack Helicopter Regiment :(

 

Interesting. I guess if any MiG-29s find their way over to swat down the gnats that are making life miserable for the grunts, those Apaches will just have to dodge the Alamos and Adders so they can close for a gun kill. :lol:

 

I'm just joking with you obviously, since you took that from a field manual. I still find it funny. Giving a helo the A/A responsibility that would normally go to a light tactical fighter is a bit like giving a tank the surface to air responsibility normally given to something like a Shilka.

 

The only reason I asked about the R-73 is for the sake of completeness. If the real thing can field it, it'd be nice if the simulation could field it however unlikely it would be.

[GGTharos]

... and if Any F-15 happens to be around, those MiG-29's will barely know what hit'em ... ;D

 

But anyway, to hopefuly answer some questions:

It is, at this time, unknown how/if the R-73 CAN be fielded. There have been mock ups, but no live test firings insofar as we know, and since you could probably strap just about anything you wanted to a pylon ... so no, no R-73's.

 

About the lack of RWR: Please keep in mind that the Ka-50 is designed for 'low intensity conflict' as far as these modern times go (back in the day, it may have fared well enough in the gap) ... so we're talking about blowing up terrorist camps, and some armor if said terrorists had'em. (You can call'em freedom fighters if you like. All the same).

 

So the key here is, for the mission designer to avoid being a jerk and putting radar-guided SAMs all over the place.

 

Believe me, a handful of well-placed IGLAs or Stinger will make for a -very- deadly battlefield, as will the 23's. Just because the target 'sounds' easy, doesn't mean it is!

[quo vadis]

all helicopters should stay in the weeds and try not to look conspicuous (hard with a huge eggbeater over the head though :D)

 

How fast would you fly to maintain a 'low profile' ?! I have the bad habit of going for maximum speed so I get to the action sooner. If this means action finds me sooner, I might have to slow down. But how much ?