Laser rockets

[Tiger-II]

I must say that I don't understand the "form over function".

[J20Stronk]

Razbam announced back in 2018 that ED is making APKWS for hornet so they will feature it on harrier as well when finished.

 

Join the waiting club then. Why not make it work for the time being instead of having a complete useless weapon available? There was nothing wrong with it before you guys completely broke it while knowing there is no alternative available atm from the head developers.

 

Fr....

 

It USED to work just fine, albeit with the reduced capabilities and increased restrictions of a beam riding scheme. At least it would hit targets, even with gentle offset maneuvers like you saw me do in my video with consistently decent accuracy.

 

Now, since you guys applied your "research" into a weapon with the completely wrong guidance, you've turned this into a useless turd.

 

It was a big-brain move to make it a beam rider to begin with; introducing post-launch maneuvering restrictions and reducing capabilities just for the sake of making it spin. But to also apply an artificial guidance error/instability ontop of a completely incorrect scheme? Friggin' cosmic-brain move...

 

...and now, after all this you won't revert the change, opting instead to wait for ED to develop a scheme they've apparently been "working on" since 2018. Never mind the fact that you'll probably have to rework the rocket's guidance and instability once that comes out, IF it ever does...

Edited June 13, 2020 by J20Stronk

[AnarchyZG]

Tried it yesterday, useless, got 1 hit in about 12 launches. Aircraft manuevers do not seem to matter. Targets were stationary armor, point track with TGP, flying directly to target.

 

I don't know if it's realistic or not, but it is a completely different weapon now. You might as well take the unguided version for the same result.

 

P.S. It was a night mission but that shouldn't make any difference for laser guided projectiles

Edited June 13, 2020 by AnarchyZG

[spec10]

BRM1 is more like APKWS (laser guided but not beam riding)

Seems ED is making APWKS scheme, so it's better to wait a final solution.

 

Since now to have spin effect, only Vikhr scheme provides such visual effect.

S-25L is a hard-coded spin and non-scheme weapon.

 

So either no sharp maneuver after launch or

we may think about another option: use S-25L and use hard-coded spin (so for AI launching BRM1, no spin).

 

 

Honestly, I admire the commitment to detail, but right now the people flying the JF-17 don't care about the visuals. The weapon in its current state is extremely unreliable and not worth taking into combat. Spinning or not spinning, from a customer perspective this is a secondary issue, the primary focus must be that the weapon performs in a reliable way.

[Tj1376]

Tried it yesterday, useless, got 1 hit in about 12 launches. Aircraft manuevers do not seem to matter. Targets were stationary armor, point track with TGP, flying directly to target.

 

I don't know if it's realistic or not, but it is a completely different weapon now. You might as well take the unguided version for the same result.

 

P.S. It was a night mission but that shouldn't make any difference for laser guided projectiles

Stop using point track. Use area track instead. Try not to move laterally, only pull up to stay out of engagement. Fire at longer distances and pull up hard very early. I'm now almost 100 percent on any target I shoot at.

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[Tj1376]

IRL, BRM is just a low cost guided weapon used at low threat enviroment and maybe good at smashing some terrorist camps & tents:D.

 

 

 

Anyway, the code is now under adjustment, we will see if it works better.

Thank you for the fixes with this patch! Its much more effective!!!

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[AnarchyZG]

more effective? with 10% hit rate?

[Blinky.ben]

Stop using point track. Use area track instead. Try not to move laterally, only pull up to stay out of engagement. Fire at longer distances and pull up hard very early. I'm now almost 100 percent on any target I shoot at.

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

Have to disagree with you here. I almost never use point track ever sense it came out and I still miss 8 time out of ten. Before almost never had a miss. It’s now at the point I no longer take the BRM’s and there is a group of 6 of use that fly the JF that no longer use the BRM’s. Some have even gone back to the f-18 which breaks my heart cause I can’t stand that Jet

[Terrorban]

Thank you for the fixes with this patch! Its much more effective!!!

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

Not sure what you are praising him for. There was nothing mentioned in the patch notes and they are not fixed. The rocket tracking is still a mess.

[uboats]

 

:cry:pls:cry:

 

could you share your miz?

for QS miz, not matter how i maneuver after launch (either pnt/area track), always hit where laser pointing at.

[Blinky.ben]

could you share your miz?

for QS miz, not matter how i maneuver after launch (either pnt/area track), always hit where laser pointing at.

 

You have multiple people informing you guys they are having serious problems even with videos to show you what is happening and you continually persist there is nothing wrong. What’s the go? This isn’t going to be fixed any time soon is it?

 

I’m more then happy to do another video to show no matter what point track or area track with the slightest turn or climb it indeed won’t hit they target with the exception of a few that do hit and I mean maybe 3 hit out of 20

Edited June 13, 2020 by Blinky.ben

[uboats]

You have multiple people informing you guys they are having serious problems even with videos to show you what is happening and you continually persist there is nothing wrong. What’s the go? This isn’t going to be fixed any time soon is it?

 

I’m more then happy to do another video to show no matter what point track or area track with the slightest turn or climb it indeed won’t hit they target with the exception of a few that do hit and I mean maybe 3 hit out of 20

 

no miz, how can we reproduce?

[Tj1376]

Have to disagree with you here. I almost never use point track ever sense it came out and I still miss 8 time out of ten. Before almost never had a miss. It’s now at the point I no longer take the BRM’s and there is a group of 6 of use that fly the JF that no longer use the BRM’s. Some have even gone back to the f-18 which breaks my heart cause I can’t stand that Jet

You updated to the latest open beta, including the hotfix that came out on Friday, right?

 

I'll post my acmi and track later tonight. The missiles fly within the beam now with very little craziness.

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[Tj1376]

Not sure what you are praising him for. There was nothing mentioned in the patch notes and they are not fixed. The rocket tracking is still a mess.

Maybe because I tried it after the release? If you've been around dcs for any period of time you'll know many times we never see patch notes.

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[Blinky.ben]

Maybe because I tried it after the release? If you've been around dcs for any period of time you'll know many times we never see patch notes.

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

No I haven’t tried them for a week or so now. Will give them ago tonight

 

Cheers

[Terrorban]

no miz, how can we reproduce?

 

By asking your testers to properly do the testing in different scenarios and present you with the results instead of them trying to teach the community to nose dive into enemy until weapon impact? This is something so many people are experiencing. It cannot simply be just all of us.

 

Why don't you present your multiple runs around the same area with various enemy types and show that every single rocket hits and that there is no insane movement happening in one take? Make sure to add your examples of what no sharp maneuvering looks like.

 

I would also like to know why this change was not logged in the patch notes? Furthermore, if it was acknowledged and then fixed in the latest patch, why was this also not mentioned in the patch notes?

 

The SD-10 change was also not mentioned in the patch notes. Did you guys simply forget to add these significant details on patch notes while mentioning every little other change?

 

Maybe because I tried it after the release? If you've been around dcs for any period of time you'll know many times we never see patch notes.

 

TJ

 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

I have been in these forums for almost two years. Never seen this much missed patch notes surrounding weapons in such short period of time before.

[uboats]

By asking your testers to properly do the testing in different scenarios and present you with the results instead of them trying to teach the community to nose dive into enemy until weapon impact? This is something so many people are experiencing. It cannot simply be just all of us.

 

Why don't you present your multiple runs around the same area with various enemy types and show that every single rocket hits and that there is no insane movement happening in one take? Make sure to add your examples of what no sharp maneuvering looks like.

 

our testers tried many times, and we have internal bug report, but they cannot reproduce either.

 

you reported bugs, then you should not only provide video, as sticky thread says, trk and miz. To fix bug, reproducing it is key.

[uboats]

anyway

we are changing the current beam ride to 25L like guidance.

25L spin is hardcoded, so we are trying to add spin for player launched brm1

for ai, currently no solution.

Edited June 13, 2020 by uboats

[foxwxl]

No I haven’t tried them for a week or so now. Will give them ago tonight

 

Cheers

 

From my test, its currently flying much more stable, U can have a try.

[J20Stronk]

could you share your miz?

for QS miz, not matter how i maneuver after launch (either pnt/area track), always hit where laser pointing at.

 

This was in the Hoggit MP Training server. (Server is public but PW protected. Password is hoggitfw1)

 

My ping was 50ms. Loaded my plane with TGP, GBU-10 and the BRM-1.

As you saw, fire the rocket from 4.2nm, alt of 5000-6000 fts at 350kts. Even the gentlest of turns, offset about 10°-20° left or right and the rocket just starts oscillate like crazy.

 

Even if you don't turn away and just fly into the target, it still shakes. Less than what is seen in the video, but still enough to cause the thing to miss most of the time.

 

Needless to say flying straight into a target in a real combat mission is suicide, and for a marginal increase in precision? Nah fam.

 

This also happens in SP for me, however. Mission and mode are irrelevant.

 

But alas it shouldn't matter anymore; THANK YOU, for finally making them use the S-25L SALH scheme!

 

Maybe because I tried it after the release? If you've been around dcs for any period of time you'll know many times we never see patch notes.

 

My video was recorded using the latest update. They're still as bad as before. Also tried your methods of just pitching up instead and they still miss horribly.

 

EDIT: ok! TJ, you were actually right! If you fire these things in Area Track they will fly very stable trajectories. No more oscillations!

 

They actually fly just as smoothly as before! But only if they are fired in Area Track. If you fire in Point Track, then they oscillate like crazy.

 

Thanks man! This is good enough until the S-25L scheme is adapted!

 

EDIT 2: it seems that the stability lasts only if you remain in Area Track. Once you go into Point Track, all BRMs fired from that point on become unstable and oscillate until you respawn, even if you shoot them in Area Track.

In other words: NEVER GO INTO POINT TRACK MODE

Edited June 14, 2020 by J20Stronk

[Tj1376]

more effective? with 10% hit rate?

 

I have a mission I call "attack against Khasab" - its a full base modeled off BlueFlag PG (a semi-popular multiplayer server.) I start with 2 LD10s, 2 SFWs and 19 BRMs. I scored 17 of 19 hits with the BRM for a total of 28 kills. Name another airframe that can do an hour long sortie and score 28 kills and still have fuel to return home across the channel for dinner?

 

The BRMs still behave a bit erratically, there is no question about that. But it is much more stable this release. Now we hope it stays this way or improves!

 

Track and ACMI are here - I am encoding the hour long sortie now and will upload it here too if you want to watch to see how I did it (and hear my color commentary!)

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MxFte-pIccBi6MunnC2o5zotO3vWJh1f?usp=sharing

 

TJ

 

EDIT: Vid uploaded, start around 24m 50s for BRM employment

Edited June 14, 2020 by Tj1376

[Terrorban]

I scored 17 of 19 hits with the BRM for a total of 28 kills. Name another airframe that can do an hour long sortie and score 28 kills and still have fuel to return home across the channel for dinner?

 

If you consider any DCS jet that can carry CBU-87, they will do way more kills in half that time.

 

Anyway, I am glad to hear they are finally going to make these rockets work properly again.

 

Once BRM work again, I will pick this plane back up. The silent change of SD-10 was annoying enough. I just don't like these sneaky perormance reduction without any initial announcment, evidence or communication.

 

After Deka gave in to ED pressure, their validity in the DCS online community already took impact. To me, this shows clearly since it is very rare to even see JF-17 on non PVP servers around busy european timezone anymore.

[Tj1376]

If you consider any DCS jet that can carry CBU-87, they will do way more kills in half that time.

 

Tell you what, if you are interested in proving me wrong Ill provide the same MIZ that I used here and you provide the track of you doing it better with a CBU87. I dont think you can currently as we dont have another capable multirole fighter in DCS. But I love to be proven wrong, so are you up to the challenge?

 

Anyway, I am glad to hear they are finally going to make these rockets work properly again.

 

Once BRM work again, I will pick this plane back up. The silent change of SD-10 was annoying enough. I just don't like these sneaky perormance reduction without any initial announcment, evidence or communication.

 

After Deka gave in to ED pressure, their validity in the DCS online community already took impact. To me, this shows clearly since it is very rare to even see JF-17 on non PVP servers around busy european timezone anymore.

 

I feel your pain here, but that is literally why its called Early Access. In this period, we tune airplanes based upon SME feedback from the wild which leads to changes in how the airplane performs overall. I agree 100% with your frustration (I even ranted about it in this thread!), but this is the peril of buying an Early Access product. Other products have faced this same problem:

• Magic radar in the F16
  
• Magic INS in the Phoenix
  
• Magic mavericks on the Viggen that could shoot down an airplane and would never run out of energy (this one has been fixed - or nerf'd depending on your stance.)
  
• Magic mistral missle that never ran out of energy and just blew up (fixed - or nerf'd)
  
• Magic helo dynamics of the Gazelle
  

 

The BRMs are usable in their current state, and Im also happy that Deka is making some changes to improve them even more. Watch my track, acmi or video and see how I do it. Maybe you can find some more enjoyment in this model by adapting your techniques to mine. The plane is a helluva lot of fun!

 

TJ

[Terrorban]

Tell you what, if you are interested in proving me wrong Ill provide the same MIZ that I used here and you provide the track of you doing it better with a CBU87. I dont think you can currently as we dont have another capable multirole fighter in DCS. But I love to be proven wrong, so are you up to the challenge?

 

 

 

I feel your pain here, but that is literally why its called Early Access. In this period, we tune airplanes based upon SME feedback from the wild which leads to changes in how the airplane performs overall. I agree 100% with your frustration (I even ranted about it in this thread!), but this is the peril of buying an Early Access product. Other products have faced this same problem:

• Magic radar in the F16
  
• Magic INS in the Phoenix
  
• Magic mavericks on the Viggen that could shoot down an airplane and would never run out of energy (this one has been fixed - or nerf'd depending on your stance.)
  
• Magic mistral missle that never ran out of energy and just blew up (fixed - or nerf'd)
  
• Magic helo dynamics of the Gazelle
  

 

The BRMs are usable in their current state, and Im also happy that Deka is making some changes to improve them even more. Watch my track, acmi or video and see how I do it. Maybe you can find some more enjoyment in this model by adapting your techniques to mine. The plane is a helluva lot of fun!

 

TJ

 

Apologies, I am not going to get into petty off topic fights with you. Also, I no longer have access to F-16 to provide example anymore. The CBU on it can level a whole airfield in 3 or so circles.

 

I bought JF-17 over F-16 because I was more interested in ground attack and this plane was really good with that. It is good with what it has but then again the Hornet is just as much, if not even more capable multirole jet in DCS now with recent changes.

 

BRM might be useable in current state but definately not logical anymore.

 

Just because this is an Early Access jet, it does not give them free pass from feedback and criticism. I dont have to sit and take whatever pointless reason developers provide to make significant change.

 

Ranting and complaining clearly works. Just look at what happened with SD-10. ED has now taken away the development of weapons from 3rd party developers because of it.

 

Saying all this, I completely understand what you are saying. I am just more passionate about this plane because there is currently no other non NATO jet in the pipeline and the chances of one appearing are looking even less now. This is most likeley the most recent jet we will ever get in DCS and probably the only one to use the latest Chinese weapons.

 

The fact that BRM is a beam riding weapon in this game is a complete fiction so when Deka try to give us other excuses, they do not make sense since this weapon is currently fictional at the core.

 

I makes little sense to me that they are spending development time in adjusting a placeholder weapon which will be scrapped as soon as the actual API becomes available.

 

Their new decision to model it using 25L guidance is more acceptable and I am really looking forward to what it looks like but for now, I will be using Hornet and Viggen for ground strike.

[Tj1376]

Apologies, I am not going to get into petty off topic fights with you. Also, I no longer have access to F-16 to provide example anymore. The CBU on it can level a whole airfield in 3 or so circles.

 

If you took this as a petty and off topic fight, I think you need to examine your attitude. This wasnt a fight, I was genuinely curious if you could do it. The way in which you approached your answer said more to me (and Deka) about you than anything else. Clearly you are negative, frustrated and lashing out at something beyond the BRM. I am very sorry you saw it this way.

 

I dont honestly think the F-16 can do it. Had you looked at the track, acmi or video that I provided and have seen how spread out the map is, and how terrible CBU modelling currently is in DCS, you'd probably have come to the same conclusion I did. But hey, we have characters on a deck that move now.

 

Like you, I was frustrated with the BRM. But I learned, improvised and adapted to how they currently work. Im still not happy with them, but I can approach Uboats or Foxwxl and have a constructive conversation with them, which in turn lead to them finding two issues (one with point track on some DCS world units and the inaccuracy of the BRM.)

 

A positive attitude promotes positive results. Try it some time and see if you get a better response.

 

TJ