Difficulty Hitting Multiple TWS Targets

[Horns]

I'm finding it really tough to hit multiple targets in TWS, either in OB (with TWS-A) or stable. When two targets are highlighted (ie brighter) I wait until I'm within 15nm and fire, but I only hit one if I hit anything at all. When I've tried from 10nm or 20nm I even score one hit less often.

 

I know the whole point of TWS was to allow the cat to engage multiple targets at once (and not give the targets radar lock warnings), so I must be doing something wrong. Anyone else having trouble with this, and any tips for overcoming it?

 

EDIT: Should have mentioned I am using AIM-54s

Edited May 6, 2020 by Horns
Added comment on AIM-54

[Longiron]

you are throwing fox3's at em right?

[Horns]

you are throwing fox3's at em right?

 

Yes, sorry I should have said it was AIM-54s, I’ll update the OP

[Bearfoot]

What sort of targets (aircraft type -- fighter, bomber, small, large)?

 

What is their (ballpark) altitude / speed?

 

What is your (ballpark) altitude / speed?

 

AI or human?

 

I've found that my success rate is much higher when I am going > Mach 1, and roughly co-altitude (+/- 1000 ft).

 

IRL,at least, going fast gives energy to the missile, and going > Mach 1 avoids the missile using its own energy to accelerate past the very draggy Mach 1 sound barrier. Don't know if this is modeled, but, like I said, it seems to help a lot.

 

As for altitude, too low and the missile has to use its energy to climb. I don't think too high hurts the missile PK (maybe?), but it does put the other guys against ground clutter and makes you stand out against the clean cool sky ...

 

Still, at even 15-25nm, I think I would consider it to be a very good day if I got more than a 50-75% hit rate, especially against smaller/faster targets. I always count on Sparrows to finish off the leakers at closer range if dealing with 3-4 big aircraft (and tighten up for a BFM knife fight if dealing with fighters).

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert ...

[draconus]

I know the whole point of TWS was to allow the cat to engage multiple targets at once (and not give the targets radar lock warnings)...

When correctly implemented the target will get RWR warning when the AIM-54 goes active.

 

Had the targets been assigned with priority shoot numbers when shot at?

Keep in mind they can defend and often succeed.

Otoh I was amazed when I hit all flight of 4 AI Mig-29s in one TWS salvo from 30-40nm last time.

[Horns]

What sort of targets (aircraft type -- fighter, bomber, small, large)?

 

What is their (ballpark) altitude / speed?

 

What is your (ballpark) altitude / speed?

 

AI or human?

 

I've found that my success rate is much higher when I am going > Mach 1, and roughly co-altitude (+/- 1000 ft).

 

IRL,at least, going fast gives energy to the missile, and going > Mach 1 avoids the missile using its own energy to accelerate past the very draggy Mach 1 sound barrier. Don't know if this is modeled, but, like I said, it seems to help a lot.

 

As for altitude, too low and the missile has to use its energy to climb. I don't think too high hurts the missile PK (maybe?), but it does put the other guys against ground clutter and makes you stand out against the clean cool sky ...

 

Still, at even 15-25nm, I think I would consider it to be a very good day if I got more than a 50-75% hit rate, especially against smaller/faster targets. I always count on Sparrows to finish off the leakers at closer range if dealing with 3-4 big aircraft (and tighten up for a BFM knife fight if dealing with fighters).

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert ...

 

AI Su-27s and MiG-29s at about Angels 30, not sure of their speeds. I'm at about M0.9 at Angels 26, sorry I didn't have that info in the OP.

 

Early on when I was trying to learn how to use the AIM-54 I came across some advice suggesting it was best to be slightly in look up (due to some filter, I can't remember exactly what) and that going slower increased the chances of maintaining lock.

 

What you say makes sense and is more in keeping with what I've learned elsewhere so I'm going to start doing it the way you suggest, makes sense to increase the missile's energy at launch and let it use less energy dropping onto the target.

 

Thanks for the assist :thumbup:

[Horns]

When correctly implemented the target will get RWR warning when the AIM-54 goes active.

 

Had the targets been assigned with priority shoot numbers when shot at?

Keep in mind they can defend and often succeed.

Otoh I was amazed when I hit all flight of 4 AI Mig-29s in one TWS salvo from 30-40nm last time.

You're right about targets receiving warnings from the missile's radar, thanks for the clarification.

 

Now that you mention it I don't think I am getting priority numbers. Any idea why that would be?

 

Good to know that the Phoenixes not hitting their targets may be due to factors other than user error by me, so I'll enjoy my multikill successes without expecting them to work every time and amend tactics to expect cleanup :book: Thanks for the help!

[Bearfoot]

AI Su-27s and MiG-29s at about Angels 30, not sure of their speeds. I'm at about M0.9 at Angels 26, sorry I didn't have that info in the OP.

 

Early on when I was trying to learn how to use the AIM-54 I came across some advice suggesting it was best to be slightly in look up (due to some filter, I can't remember exactly what) and that going slower increased the chances of maintaining lock.

 

What you say makes sense and is more in keeping with what I've learned elsewhere so I'm going to start doing it the way you suggest, makes sense to increase the missile's energy at launch and let it use less energy dropping onto the target.

 

Thanks for the assist :thumbup:

 

Fighters are tough to track.

 

Small fighters are tougher --- I've found Mig-21's cannot be picked up till they are crawling up your nostril. I have often see them visually (contrails / labels) before relaible TWS tracks are generated by Jester.

 

Re: filters --- there is the Zero Doppler filter and the ground filter. And if they are coming hot toward you then the effective velocity puts them out of both filters anyway. In general, it is true that looking up avoids ground returns so do you don't need the ground filter. Not sure how this plays with AI RIO Jester. But either way you don't have to be very low -- just lower. So even 1000ft or two is plenty.

[Horns]

Thank you both for the assistance, I think I have it sorted now and have amended expectations.

 

Bearfoot, I am breaking M1.0 pre-launch, the accuracy has been better and having that energy and altitude at the start of the dogfight is great. I can accept now that I won't get a perfect record with the Phoenix because of the factors involved. I can live with some cleanup.

 

Draconus, thank you too for mentioning that AI fighters can and do evade successfully, nice to know it's not always my screw up. Your question on launch priority numbers was really helpful, I realized the numbers were a good way to work out if a bogey is going to be targeted, so now at least I can tell whether I should fire one missile or more.

 

I also realized that selecting the AIM-54 earlier appears to make it more likely the radar will detect a multi target opportunity.

 

Thanks again

H

[Bearfoot]

Just a pedantic terminological clarification: "dogfight" usually refers to close-in WVR BFM engagements, BVR A2A engagements are, well, "BVR A2A engagements" or some such :)

 

Thank you both for the assistance, I think I have it sorted now and have amended expectations.

 

Bearfoot, I am breaking M1.0 pre-launch, the accuracy has been better and having that energy and altitude at the start of the dogfight is great. I can accept now that I won't get a perfect record with the Phoenix because of the factors involved. I can live with some cleanup.

 

Draconus, thank you too for mentioning that AI fighters can and do evade successfully, nice to know it's not always my screw up. Your question on launch priority numbers was really helpful, I realized the numbers were a good way to work out if a bogey is going to be targeted, so now at least I can tell whether I should fire one missile or more.

 

I also realized that selecting the AIM-54 earlier appears to make it more likely the radar will detect a multi target opportunity.

 

Thanks again

H

[Horns]

Just a pedantic terminological clarification: "dogfight" usually refers to close-in WVR BFM engagements, BVR A2A engagements are, well, "BVR A2A engagements" or some such :)

Oh yeah for sure, what I meant was that after accelerating to fire the missile I then have that energy as I close to WVR and cleanup (ie dogfight) as necessary :)

[Sneak_King18]

I'm finding it really tough to hit multiple targets in TWS, either in OB (with TWS-A) or stable. When two targets are highlighted (ie brighter) I wait until I'm within 15nm and fire, but I only hit one if I hit anything at all. When I've tried from 10nm or 20nm I even score one hit less often.

 

I know the whole point of TWS was to allow the cat to engage multiple targets at once (and not give the targets radar lock warnings), so I must be doing something wrong. Anyone else having trouble with this, and any tips for overcoming it?

 

EDIT: Should have mentioned I am using AIM-54s

 

 

 

15 NM is way too close for TWS. you can find them with your pilot radar mode (left to right, top to bottom scan pattern). with a high closure rate, you can launch at somebody at 40 nm(TWS). if they dodge it, you should be at the 15 nm mark for the next shot, when they are defensive. use your camera when you lock on to the target, so you can watch.

 

10 miles or less, flip ACM switch up and phoenix is pitbull off the rails. and that goes without saying if its a single target, use STT. if you can keep an STT lock on a target at distance, you can get another 15 miles out of your missile.

 

there are alot of varibales that increase/decrease your chances of getting distance kills. its extremely valuable for the sheer fact that it will put them in a defensive state when you have the ability to STT and hit them with a close range phoenix, which is pretty deadly if used correctly at short ranges.

 

when i launch i like to start decreasing altitude , nose on targets so i can keep them in the radars zone until they go pitbull. at that point, STT the first target allows you to prioritize on who to go after if the missiles miss.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Sneak_King18

[draconus]

I select 54s early so Jester can see it and goes TWS accordingly. I fly toward bandits and wait for IFF. They will get their death numbers soon. With TWS-A you can crank already. Beware of datalink contacts - those will not be considered targets unless painted by your radar. Then depending on alt and speed lauch 54 on first target, wait and steer for the second to get in range while keeping the previous in the cone, then third... you better have wingman for that ;)

[captain_dalan]

Now that you mention it I don't think I am getting priority numbers. Any idea why that would be?

 

Numbers are usually lacking because of a lack of track file and this usually means:

- lock was dropped for a long enough period to lose the track file;

- target was just picked up, and/or not IFF-ed;

- target is a Data link contact

 

Anyways, as others have said, anything closer then 20 miles away, TWS isn't the most reliable method to engage bandits. Relative displacement is too big, which makes it very hard for the radar to keep track on multiple bandits, especially with dispersing vectors.

 

Also, a general hint. If a all targets are dropped at some point, by default Jester will switch from TWS to RWS. This will make the cone larger and targets easier to pick up, however it also means and extra step added when those targets are detected again. I usually try to setup my intercept geometry in such a way that the threats can easily be found in TWS's cone. I then order Jester manually to scan in TWS. This way he doesn't switch to RWS and if/when the targets are picked up again, track file gets built right away, plus IFF-ing can start sooner too. This is all of course done at "closer" distances (for an F-14). Talking sub 40-45 NM here.